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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Rules

Subject: Knight multiple equipment use rss

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Juho Rutila
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Hi, my first five player game ended when the Knight blew up a wall and slayed the Dragon using a bomb. I started thinking if this was ok. I tried to search the rules and rule summaries and these threads but didn't find an definitive answer.

Can the knight use bomb (or any equipment for that matter) more than once during her turn? I know she can't attack the Dragon twice until surfaced but can she blow up three walls and attack the dragon once and shoot goblins with the bow two times?

All the players really liked the game!
 
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Jonathan Chaffer
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There is only one spot for a cube on the Bomb ability, so you can only use it once per turn.

However, is there any reason the Knight couldn't have used the Ancient Map instead to the same effect?
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David Fenton
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JonBob wrote:
There is only one spot for a cube on the Bomb ability, so you can only use it once per turn.

However, is there any reason the Knight couldn't have used the Ancient Map instead to the same effect?

As Jonathan mentioned, 1 cube placed = 1 use (with the exception of Shield which, when "used", stays in effect until the cube is removed...typically the next turn).
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Patrick Leder
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Someone is playing a really early version of the Witch, which is interesting since she is still in my notes.

Bad joke, but yeah it seems like Ancient Map would have been just as useful.
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David Fenton
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The key wording is in the rulebooks as
Quote:
Bomb allows you to attack the Dragon...Otherwise, you may activate the Bomb and place a Bomb token on a wall..."

Likewise Bow allows you to
Quote:
target a Goblin Tribe
Note the "otherwise" (meaning "if not one, then the other") and the singular forms.

In contrast, Shield states you can "ignore other players' effects" and "each time you lose Grit", both whith imply multiple usage.
 
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Juho Rutila
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dsdhornet wrote:
JonBob wrote:
There is only one spot for a cube on the Bomb ability, so you can only use it once per turn.

However, is there any reason the Knight couldn't have used the Ancient Map instead to the same effect?

As Jonathan mentioned, 1 cube placed = 1 use (with the exception of Shield which, when "used", stays in effect until the cube is removed...typically the next turn).


Sorry, I am now more confused. So the Knight can use the bomb only once (either destroy a wall OR attack the Dragon). That is clear. But does the use of Ancient Map only cost one cube and can be used three times in a turn?
 
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Karl
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jrutila wrote:

But does the use of Ancient Map only cost one cube and can be used three times in a turn?


Yes
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David Fenton
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jrutila wrote:

But does the use of Ancient Map only cost one cube and can be used three times in a turn?

Each use of the Ancient Map costs 1 cube, but you can use 3 cubes to use it 3 times in a turn (hence the 3 cube spaces on the player mat).
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Patrick Leder
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Any graphic design advice on this issue? This is not the first time I have seen this misinterpretation.
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Ponder Stibbons
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GreenM wrote:
Any graphic design advice on this issue? This is not the first time I have seen this misinterpretation.

this has happened in my group as well. possibly "/" slashes between boxes to separate them and reduce the chance of someone assuming "+" goes between them instead. adding text might be clearer, but not as simple/elegant.
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David Fenton
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GreenM wrote:
Any graphic design advice on this issue? This is not the first time I have seen this misinterpretation.

For Ancient Map, I'd probably just spell it out. Add "for each cube spent, " at the beginning of it. For the others, maybe change "a" to "one", as in "shoot one goblin tribe", or maybe add "When used, shoot...". Or, if you don't want to change the Player Mats, add a statement to the Equipment section along the lines of "Each cube placed in a cube space allows one use", though it seems like you already say that for Ancient map in the rulebook (but not the Player Mat).



There are many games (Fluxx, Gloom, Hex Hex) where most the rules are on the cards or player aids. The rulebook generally says "follow instructions on the cards" and has a (short) FAQ section providing detail on a few more complex cards.

Other games (Pandemic, Risk, Chess) have all the rules in the rulebook, which means they have a page or two showing player mats (or component layouts) with labels pointing to each component, such that understanding the player mat without having read the rules is impossible. There might be a reference card or something, but it simply lists the names of the phases, or a one-sentence description of actions available (but to understand how to perform the actions, you need to read the rulebook).

In Vast, it's a bit of a mix, which makes it confusing. Some things are stated on the board only (Dragon Powers / Cave Omens), some are on cards only (Goblin Secrets / Monsters / Events), some are in the rules only (Goblin Action descriptions), and some are described in both the Rulebook and on the Player Mat (Equipment / Treasures / Thief Actions), to different levels of detail.

I'm the type that likes to read through the rulebook from front to back before playing a game (especially if it's a strategy type game, since knowing the rules allows proper planning). However, many people just want to jump into a game, either because they have to learn by doing, or because they don't want to read a long rulebook. That type will typically try to play using the player aid for as long as possible, only referring to the rulebook when they don't understand something ("1. Move and Use Powers...how do I do that now"). Having seen the description of Equipment/Treasures on the board/cards, it might not occur to them that there's more information elsewhere (after all, if they'd played Goblins, there wasn't).


I think that your current intention to revise and clarify the rulebook will go a long way. Right now it's a bit disjointed and intimidating, which discourages in-depth reading. Similar looking things are stated numerous times with slight variations (without explanation as to why it varies), and there's not a general overview (so one would need to read the entire manual to understand the different roles, even when not playing them). Simplify the manual, give a separate "turn summary" page showing how the flow goes for all players (on one page). For details, focus on what's not already stated on cards / player mats. Include a "FAQ" section instead of restating Equipment descriptions, which frees up room to elaborate on when and how Equipment may be used (include a picture or two showing how cubes are placed on the board).
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Brian Baker
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GreenM wrote:
Any graphic design advice on this issue? This is not the first time I have seen this misinterpretation.

I had this same problem for my first play; I never considered using the Ancient Map because it looked expensive.

From a visual perspective, consider putting a shaded background around each box, keeping them separate from each other. However, I think revising the text on the player mat would be the most help.
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David Fenton
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HolisticDeveloper wrote:
From a visual perspective, consider putting a shaded background around each box, keeping them separate from each other. However, I think revising the text on the player mat would be the most help.

I feel like the boxes are separated fine as they are, but the key missing part on the Player Mat (which is present in the Rule Sheets, but apparently not often read) is "Each placed hero cube..."
 
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