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Subject: Finding the balance between miniatures war-games and hex based war-games rss

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Matteo Harris
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Warning: slightly wishful ramblings incoming

In my perfect world there would be a war-games system, that allowed you to print your own maps with blank grids, then draw on your own terrain, and then play either your own scenarios or community made scenarios (with near infinite possibilities) using a (relatively) simple rules system(s). Its not that I don't appreciate the hard work of board game developers and designers, but I have always loved the possibilities miniatures wargaming provides, in terms of customisation and replayibility at a (relatively) cheap price. Its one of the things I miss the most since I converted from miniatures.

Since it doesn't exist as a pre-made ruleset, I am considering attempting to create some WW2 rules to fulfil these requirements. At the moment because its what I have to hand I am considering hijacking some memoir 44 figures and using different coloured dice to represent variants (light tank, heavy tank, assault gun (think Stug III), Armoured Carrier etc) and combat status.

Edit: Based on this idea can you guys recommend games that use counters with only 2 or 3 stats on them, that could instead be represented with dice?

What do you guys think? Am I crazy in wishing something like this could exist? Any tips for creating a ruleset for something like this?
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Roger Hobden
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Lost Battles is an excellent bridge between miniatures and board wargames for the Ancients Era.
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Matteo Harris
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Mallet wrote:
Lost Battles is an excellent bridge between miniatures and board wargames for the Ancients Era.


Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually just looking at it. but (I may be wrong) isn't it just a slightly more complicated C and C? Or am I being unfair?
 
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Bob Zurunkel
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Take a look at Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition), it may give you some ideas. There's also a solitaire module, if that's a factor for you.
 
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Matteo Harris
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Westie wrote:
Take a look at Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition), it may give you some ideas. There's also a solitaire module, if that's a factor for you.


Got work to do now but will look into it later. Cheers!
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Captain Nemo
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Cazzer505 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the closest thing would be C and C, which is brilliant but its not quite it^

Since it doesn't exist as a pre-made ruleset, I am considering attempting to create some WW2 rules to fulfil these requirements. At the moment because its what I have to hand I am considering hijacking some memoir 44 figures and using different coloured dice to represent variants (light tank, heavy tank, assault gun (think Stug III), Armoured Carrier etc) and combat status.

Well you might want to check War to Axis: Warfare in Normandy, which does some of what you are thinking. Some replace M44 with their own figures, such as http://tgamesweplay.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Memoir%2044

There are a range of rules that use grids, such as Krieg Ohne Hass:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=401628
plus plenty of others. It really depends on what you are looking for.
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Kent Reuber
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There are a few miniatures rules that use square/hex grids to regulate movement.

The recent ancients rules To the Strongest! uses square grids.

The Hordes & Heroes rules from Kallistra use a hex grid. They also make a line of blank hexes that can be linked together.

I also found this Geeklist: Skirmish and Miniatures Games Played on a Square Grid
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Roger Hobden
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Cazzer505 wrote:
Mallet wrote:
Lost Battles is an excellent bridge between miniatures and board wargames for the Ancients Era.


Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually just looking at it. but (I may be wrong) isn't it just a slightly more complicated C and C? Or am I being unfair?


C and C ?

Commands & Colors: Ancients ?
 
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Pelle Nilsson
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I think there would be room for boardgames that comes with some maps and countersheets (or bags of plastic minis if you must) and just rules and no scenarios, in the spirit of most miniatures game systems, but without the cost (time and money) of having to deal with real miniatures. Allowing players to set up the armies they want to, and terrain using some simple rules, and just play, is something very rarely seen in boardgames, but that almost every miniatures game I have seen (including those with a grid) does very well.

In particular with some fog of war rules that could make for interesting more historical battles with both players having to send out recon units and having to guess what exactly they are up against.

There are many tactical boardgames that gives you enough scenarios to keep playing for a very long time. I think that is something boardgames do very well, that fewer miniatures games do (and almost none of the more popular ones?).
 
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Matteo Harris
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Mallet wrote:
Cazzer505 wrote:
Mallet wrote:
Lost Battles is an excellent bridge between miniatures and board wargames for the Ancients Era.


Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually just looking at it. but (I may be wrong) isn't it just a slightly more complicated C and C? Or am I being unfair?


C and C ?

Commands & Colors: Ancients ?


Yep. Sorry about that!
 
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Matteo Harris
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Hey guys thanks for all the replies.

One clarification id like to make is that I'm not just looking for games with enough replayability to last a while. I meant something where I could read about a battle or engagement in a book or online and then relatively quickly set that up and 're-enact' it
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Mike Hoyt

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Cazzer505 wrote:
Hey guys thanks for all the replies.

One clarification id like to make is that I'm not just looking for games with enough replayability to last a while. I meant something where I could read about a battle or engagement in a book or online and then relatively quickly set that up and 're-enact' it


You need to meet Pete Belli. He uses the Commands and Colors, along with an amazing miniatures collection, to represent all kinds of things.

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Roger Hobden
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I believe that the original concept of Squad Leader was to integrate the general spirit of miniatures into a boardgame format.

Eventually it achieved a life of it's own ...
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Roger Hobden
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The Complete Brigadier is a self-contained box with cardboard miniatures so there is nothing else to buy once you have purchased the game.
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Roger Hobden
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People say good things about this system:

Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days

but I have never tried it.

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Gav DBM
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Cazzer505 wrote:
Mallet wrote:
Lost Battles is an excellent bridge between miniatures and board wargames for the Ancients Era.


Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually just looking at it. but (I may be wrong) isn't it just a slightly more complicated C and C? Or am I being unfair?


Lost Battles was created by Prof Sabin as a dynamic model of ancient battles - the book describe the entire design process and relationship to the sources.

To me, CC:A is more a game inspired by history...

Thus I would not classify Lost Battles as just a slightly more complicated CC:A.
 
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Roger Hobden
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World War II: Barbarossa 1941 uses miniatures with simultaneous
pre-planned movement on a hex board.
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Pelle Nilsson
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blockhead wrote:
Cazzer505 wrote:
Hey guys thanks for all the replies.

One clarification id like to make is that I'm not just looking for games with enough replayability to last a while. I meant something where I could read about a battle or engagement in a book or online and then relatively quickly set that up and 're-enact' it


You need to meet Pete Belli. He uses the Commands and Colors, along with an amazing miniatures collection, to represent all kinds of things.



I think Squad Leader did just what other boardgames did, and that they still do, which is having a very strong focus on scenarios, which is the opposite of what almost all miniatures games do (and what OP requested), which is to support (and encourage) players to set up their own scenario and just play.
 
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Pete Belli
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blockhead wrote:
Cazzer505 wrote:
Hey guys thanks for all the replies.

One clarification id like to make is that I'm not just looking for games with enough replayability to last a while. I meant something where I could read about a battle or engagement in a book or online and then relatively quickly set that up and 're-enact' it


You need to meet Pete Belli. He uses the Commands and Colors, along with an amazing miniatures collection, to represent all kinds of things.



It is fair to say that there are almost no limits on the possibilities with the Commands & Colors system.







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Matt Irsik
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Mallet wrote:
The Complete Brigadier is a self-contained box with cardboard miniatures so there is nothing else to buy once you have purchased the game.


This set of rules also has one of the most unique command and control systems that I've ever seen. Basically you write orders for each units or a series of orders that units follow until told otherwise. If the brigadier is leading a unit he can't give orders meaning that keeping all of your units doing things each turn is quite the challenge. There's also sample army lists and scenarios for a few hundred years. The only down side is that there's not much randomness in combat.
 
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Geoffrey Burrell
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Axis & Allies miniatures or Battletech.
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Tony Doran
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Balance between miniatures and hex based games? Easy. Get rid of the miniatures. This will restore balance to the force. devil
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Clay Stone
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Cazzer505 wrote:


In my perfect world

What do you guys think? Am I crazy in wishing something like this could exist? Any tips for creating a ruleset for something like this?



Panzer (second edition) & Panzer Miniatures
The Panzer rule set allows for mini and hex & counters.


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Paul C
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pelni wrote:


I think Squad Leader did just what other boardgames did, and that they still do, which is having a very strong focus on scenarios, which is the opposite of what almost all miniatures games do (and what OP requested), which is to support (and encourage) players to set up their own scenario and just play.


ASL provides a lot of what is needed for homebrew scenarios, buy I agree that it seems that its fanbase primarily wants predefined scenarios. The bigger issue with ASL (IMO) is that it is the antithesis of a good modern set of elegant miniatures rules.
 
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Paul C
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This might be worth a look-
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