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Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Variants

Subject: Custom Hero - HEROIC INFINITOR (with card art) rss

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Kevin Wright
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Okay, I wasn't originally going to post these, but you guys are doing such an amazing job of giving feedback over in the Green Arrow thread (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1635443/custom-hero-green-a...) that I could probably use your input here as well. Again, I think that we have too many cards to work with, but it's good to have other heads thinking about which ones to tweak/cut.

So here's Heroic Infinitor (most of the art is by the awesome Adam "Da Man" Rebottaro). We wanted to consciously fold together cards from the villainous Infinitor's deck with cards from the heroic Captain Cosmic's deck, yielding a hero who's similar to but a bit more aggressive (and a chunk more unstable) than his brother. Some of these cards are just silly indulgences, so I'd love to get your thoughts...

























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Ian Toltz
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Capturing Cage seems ridiculously powerful. It completely shuts down a villain who only deals damage directly, and since it's not an Ongoing or Equipment there are exceedingly few (any?) villain cards that could destroy it.

I'd suggest that it should only be allowed to target non-character targets.

Also, thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense if the idea of Infinitor is to be offensive. It's a very powerful defensive card.
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Kevin Wright
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Asmor wrote:
Capturing Cage seems ridiculously powerful. It completely shuts down a villain who only deals damage directly

Actually, there are several Sentinels heroes who have cards that shut down a Villain's ability to do damage for a time. Is this one significantly different somehow that I'm missing?

Asmor wrote:
and since it's not an Ongoing or Equipment there are exceedingly few (any?) villain cards that could destroy it.

Well, it only survives for two rounds (at most) without destroying itself or starting to do some serious damage to Heroic Infinitor, too. Does that make a difference?

Asmor wrote:
Also, thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense if the idea of Infinitor is to be offensive. It's a very powerful defensive card.

That does make sense. We used it because the villainous Infinitor has a similar card.

Would it potentially work better if we tweaked it like this, so that it only works for one turn instead of two, and it does a little damage while it's working?



What do people think?
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Ian Toltz
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RevKev2000 wrote:
Asmor wrote:
Capturing Cage seems ridiculously powerful. It completely shuts down a villain who only deals damage directly

Actually, there are several Sentinels heroes who have cards that shut down a Villain's ability to do damage for a time. Is this one significantly different somehow that I'm missing?


The original version only did 2 damage. Granted, irreducible, but bfd. 2 damange per turn to completely shut down a hero is nothing.

Even if it were only allowed to be applied to the construct itself, that would still be really powerful because it lasts for 2 turns. I can't think of any cards off the top of my head which prevent a villain from dealng damage for more than 1 turn, and those cards are very good and often have some built in restriction like having to have dealt damage to the target.

Quote:
Asmor wrote:
and since it's not an Ongoing or Equipment there are exceedingly few (any?) villain cards that could destroy it.

Well, it only survives for two rounds (at most) without destroying itself or starting to do some serious damage to Heroic Infinitor, too. Does that make a difference?


As mentioned, 2 turns is a long time, and the original version could hit infinitor who has plenty of health to tank it.

Quote:
Asmor wrote:
Also, thematically it doesn't make a lot of sense if the idea of Infinitor is to be offensive. It's a very powerful defensive card.

That does make sense. We used it because the villainous Infinitor has a similar card.

Would it potentially work better if we tweaked it like this, so that it only works for one turn instead of two, and it does a little damage while it's working?



What do people think?


That's much better, although giving it the construct type is kind of confusing since all other constructs are targets, and the cage dealing damage is also a bit odd.
 
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I'm in two minds as to calling these cards Constructs. Nigel and Hugh are both brothers and 2 halves of the same power so linking them seems good thematically, but it's going to have really funky reactions mechanically.
Materialisations, Phenomenons and Externalization spring to mind as alternatives.
 
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Kevin Wright
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Matchstickman wrote:
I'm in two minds as to calling these cards Constructs. Nigel and Hugh are both brothers and 2 halves of the same power so linking them seems good thematically, but it's going to have really funky reactions mechanically.
Materialisations, Phenomenons and Externalization spring to mind as alternatives.


I like "Materialization" or "Fabrication" myself, if we're going to change it. Anyone else want to chime in?
 
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Kevin Wright
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Asmor wrote:
the cage dealing damage is also a bit odd.

I hear ya. The villainous Infinitor had a "Crushing Cage" that did damage to people. Maybe we can call this one the "Crackling Energy Cage" or something...?

Asmor wrote:
giving it the construct type is kind of confusing since all other constructs are targets

I know -- that's a large part of why we'd made it a target the first time. I suppose that we could simply bump up the damage that Heroic Infinitor either deals to it or himself, so that it only lasts one turn...



Again, what does everyone think?
 
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Ted Osborn
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Is "Stop Right There!" supposed to be Ongoing?
 
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Kevin Wright
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StrikeByFire wrote:
Is "Stop Right There!" supposed to be Ongoing?

It was meant to be a one-time thing, so it should have been an Ongoing card and have included the text "Destroy this card" as part of the power. But then again, perhaps it works better if we shift some of what we were just talking about for Capturing Cage and tweak the two of them to work like this:




I like that a bit better.
 
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Matthew Bishop
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RevKev2000 wrote:
Some of these cards are just silly indulgences, so I'd love to get your thoughts...
Can't quite tell what your goal is with this but some thoughts (take or leave them):
- Pictures are great for getting people interested enough to give feedback, but also very slow to peruse. Personally, I'd recommend also including a text version in your post. Also, if you add "inline" to the image tag it won't make a return after each one. Example (quote to see the tags):

- Card quantities are a pretty big part of deck balance (if you're trying to get people to help brainstorm then never mind) and seem pretty important if you want balance feedback.
- This deck (and what I remember seeing of the early Green Arrow deck) is very cavalier with "villain can't play/damage". These are effects that easily break the game (and I'm someone who likes winning when playing co-ops). Remember, if the villain deck loses a big chunk of its threat, all you're doing is putting down cards and then congratulating yourself on winning. If balance is not a concern, disregard, but some specific issues (which were brought up before but seem to have returned in the latest images):
Stop right there: as worded it doesn't need to make contact to completely shut down the target's damage, can hit character cards, and can be used relentlessly turn after turn. Compare to Stun Bolt and any of the damage-preventing one-shots.
Capturing cage: completely shuts down villain card plays for the rest of the game; so what if Heroic Infinitor dies to do it? A villain that can't play cards usually can't do anything, and even if they can, their card plays would probably do worse than 4 damage to one guy, so there's no meaningful tradeoff. Compare to Take Down/Mistbound, which are already some of the more abuseable/strong cards out there.

Just some food for thought.
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Kevin Wright
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tosx wrote:
Can't quite tell what your goal is with this but some thoughts (take or leave them)

My goal is just to make some fun decks for my children, with solid brainstorming input from people in this forum -- and I had a couple of days off to throw myself into 'em. So all of your thoughts are most welcome.

For instance, it may sound silly, but obviously, I didn't know about the "inline" thing, so thank you even for that. And along those same lines, I hadn't considered that someone would keep Capturing Cage (or cards like it) up to the suicidal detriment to their character. Now that you say it, that makes total sense (and now I can't not see doing it), but that strategy had just never occurred to us. I'd originally created Stop Right There to be a one-off sort of thing, so maybe we should go back to that. And as for specific card amounts, that's precisely the sort of deck detail that I'm clueless about. So all of that is exactly the kind of stuff that I needed other, smarter heads for.

Clearly, there's more work to be done on these. I just figured that people would get a kick out of 'em, warts and unfinished drafts and all...

 
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Michael Hunter
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Another really cool (if somewhat chromatically similar) deck - you're really good with this art!

I'd support the arguments about the Cage being too good - locking out the enemy's damage (and thus their ability to destroy the cage) is pretty broken against some villains. As an example, say you dump this on Iron Legacy. Assuming the environment doesn't do anything to beat you up, Infinitor can take 2 damage a turn for a cool fourteen turns. That is a long ass time to beat up a man who is incapable of fighting back!

Personally I'd keep it as in the original post, just use Asmor's suggestion of making it non-character targets only. This would make it sorta similar to chastise, and mean you could keep the cool thematic effect without completely wrecking some villains - locking down a Blade Batallion or Citizen Hammer or T-Rex is a quite reasonable effect.



I love the art on monster construct! I think it needs a trigger for what time of turn it triggers, though.


Heavy Armor kind of rings some alarm bells too - making the entire team immune to damage is pretty broken (frankly, heroic Interception is pretty broken too, and that at least leaves Legacy himself open to damage, and deals more damage to him, and can't be kept up turn after turn easily). Taking 2 damage a turn is no big deal compared to saving your team 10-20 damage in a round, and add to that is boosts his attack! Maybe if it just prevented damage to him? Also, it having HP as a construct is a bit odd, as while it's out it, as a hero target, can't really be dealt damage by anything other than heroes anyway.



Not sure I quite get Overload - he can at any time deal himself 1 damage and destroy one of his precious constructs to get rid of this amazing damage boost - not an attractive option? Is it supposed to be he must deal himself 1 and destroy a construct to keep it around?



Heroic Save is a great card for the deck, but not sure it's written out quite right - it is a one-shot, but triggers at the start of the turn? Is it supposed to be an ongoing, or is the start of turn not right?


Convergence is a very clean, clever card, I'm honestly surprised that it doesn't already exist somewhere! Construct recharge is also a clever, useful version of his villain card that will play interestingly.

Overall, great work once again!

 
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Ted Osborn
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First, I just wanted to say that this is a great idea for a hero deck and all the art manipulation you did is really cool! Love it!

That being said, I thought I would throw in my two cents for how to balance the deck. : )

I based a lot of what I did off of Captain Cosmics card quantities. I tried to put a star next to anything I changed even a little. Feel free to take it or leave it. : )

So here it is:


Heroic Infinitor (x40)

CONSTRUCTS (x21)

Capturing Cage (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
At the start of your turn, Heroic Infinitor deals this card 4 irreducible psychic damage.
Play this card next to a villain card.
That card may not deal damage.

Counter-Punch (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
Whenever this card or any other construct card is destroyed, reveal the top card of your deck. If the revealed card is a construct, put it into play. If it is not, discard it and this card deals each non-hero target 1 energy damage.

Energy Funnel (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
Play this card next to a target.
Whenever this card is dealt damage, that target regains 2 HP.

Heavy Armor (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
Heroic Infinitor and all hero targets are immune to energy damage.
All damage dealt by Heroic Infinitor is increased by 1.
Power: Up to 3 construct cards regain 2 HP each.

Monster Construct (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
At the start of your turn, this card deals the 2 non-hero targets with the highest HP 2 fire damage each.

Energy Shield (Construct) (4HP) (x3)
Play this card next to a Hero character card.
Reduce damage dealt to that hero character card by 1.

Supercharge (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
Play this card next to a hero target.
The first time that target deals damage to a non-hero target each turn, Increase that damage by 2.

EVERYTHING ELSE (19)

Beacon in the Night (Ongoing) (x3)
Whenever a construct card is destroyed, you may destroy this card to put that construct back into play.

Crazy Build-Up (One-Shot) (x2)
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck.
Put any construct cards revealed into play.
If no construct cards were revealed this way, play the first card revealed.
Shuffle the rest back into your deck.

Destructive Response (Ongoing, Limited) (x2)
The first time a construct card is destroyed each turn, Heroic Infinitor may deal up to 3 targets 1 energy damage each.

Fist of Power (One-Shot) (x2)
Destroy all construct cards.
Heroic Infinitor either deals 1 target X irreducible melee damage, or deals up to X targets 3 melee damage each, where X= the number of construct cards destroyed this way.

Heavy Artillery (One-Shot) (x3)
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck.
Heroic Infinitor deals 1 target x energy damage, where X= the number of construct cards revealed this way times 2. Discard all cards revealed this way.

Heroic Save (Ongoing, Limited) (x2)
At the start of your turn, you may move one construct from your trash into play.

Overload (Ongoing, Limited) (x2)
Increase all damage dealt by Heroic Infinitor to non-hero targets by 2.
At the start of your turn, Heroic Infinitor deals himself 1 psychic damage. You may destroy a construct to destroy this card.

Plumbers Helper (One-Shot) (x3)
Destroy 1 construct card.
Heroic Infinitor deals 1 target energy damage equal to the HP of the destroyed construct card plus 1.


I would probably cut

Stop right there! (One-Shot)
Heroic Infinitor deals 1 target 2 melee damage.
That target may not deal damage until the start of your next turn.
(Does the same basic thing as Capturing Cage. Cut in favor of keeping Capturing Cage. Infinitor needs a decent number of constructs and there are already enough One-Shots))

My Gun is Bigger (One-Shot)
You may draw a card.
You may play a card.
You may use a power now.
(Infinitor has many ways of drawing/playing cards already)

Convergence (Ongoing, Limited)
Power: Heroic Infinitor deals himself 2 energy damage.
If he takes damage this way, destroy 1 ongoing or environment card.
(I don't feel like it fits the rest of the deck and the character)

Construct Recharge (One-Shot)
Heroic Infinitor deals each non-hero target 1 energy damage.
Restore all construct cards by X HP where X= the amount of damage dealt this way.
(I like it but, couldn't make it fit and Infinitor has a way to bring constructs back so I didn't think it was as important to try to keep them around)

Conservation of Energy (One-Shot)
Destroy any number of Construct cards.
You may either draw X cards or play X cards, where X= the number of construct cards Destroyed this way plus 1.
(Removed in favor of other cards. nothing really against it. I don't care for it in Captain Cosmics deck either)


Hope you like it. If you don't that's cool too : )
 
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Kevin Wright
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StrikeByFire wrote:
I thought I would throw in my two cents for how to balance the deck. : )


Wow! You really thought a lot about these -- and you made some really good judgment calls on a bunch of 'em. I have absolutely no time right now to really unpack your thoughts at any deep level this evening, but at least on a first read, they make good sense to me.

(I mean, maybe you can get over your Conservation of Energy issues with Captain Cosmic, but other than that...) whistle

No, seriously, I think you've done a smart job of culling. I'm kinda on the fence about whether I'd prefer to keep Capturing Cage or Stop Right There! (which could also potentially be tweaked to be a Construct, and may fit better with the tone of the character), but that's about the only thing that I'm still chewing on after reading your take on things.

Thank you so much, dude -- you always have such awesome input to these things!
 
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Ted Osborn
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RevKev2000 wrote:
I'm kinda on the fence about whether I'd prefer to keep Capturing Cage or Stop Right There!


If you wanted to keep Stop Right There! You could probably keep it as a One-Shot. Then cut Overload and Capturing Cage. Maybe add in another construct based off of Wounding Buffer in Captain Cosmic's deck? Or whatever you want : )

Add in instead:

Stop right there! (One-Shot) (x2)
Heroic Infinitor deals 1 target 2 melee damage.
That target may not deal damage until the start of your next turn.

Wounding Buffer (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
Play this card next to a hero character card.
The first time that hero character card is dealt damage by a target each turn, this card deals the source of that damage 2 energy damage.
(Can change the name or whatever. I'm bad at naming things.)

Take out:

Overload (Ongoing, Limited) (x2)
Increase all damage dealt by Heroic Infinitor to non-hero targets by 2.
At the start of your turn, Heroic Infinitor deals himself 1 psychic damage. You may destroy a construct to destroy this card.
(Cut because Infinitor has multiple damage increase buffs)

Capturing Cage (Construct)(4HP) (x3)
At the start of your turn, Heroic Infinitor deals this card 4 irreducible psychic damage.
Play this card next to a villain card.
That card may not deal damage.

Just food for thought. Feel free to take what you like and throw away what you don't : )
 
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Christopher Webb
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Just thought I'd pitch in here. Very interesting concept, though my major concern is that it steps a lot on captain cosmic's toes. A bit of feedback:

Heavy Armor is definitely way too strong. If we were to go with something more thematic of armor in the multiverse it's probably better like this.

Shining Bulwark: Reduce damage dealt to hero targets by 1.

Increase damage dealt to Heroic Infinitor by 2.

Power: Destroy this card.

Nowhere near as strong, but a new concept and one that doesn't do exactly what other heroes do. Name change too because we already have the card "heavy artillery". Repeating the same word too much without it being necessary our having some specific purpose its bad English (and Good English makes your deck look and sound better) Also of note, the net bonus damage heroic Infinitor takes is only 1 after the damage reduction to himself.

If we're going for a more aggressive version of cosmic, I would also replace the energy shield. 1 damage reduction in and of itself on 1 player is stronger than it seems and combining that with another card that can reduce our immune damage is heavily supporty/defensive.
 
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Kevin Wright
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Okay, I had a little bit of time this afternoon, so I at least made the changes to the five cards that Ted recommended--



But I'm also considering the possible permutations of swapping Capturing Cage for a version of Stop Right There--



And even the idea of changing Capturing Cage's effect altogether--



I also like the idea of a Wounding Buffer-type card (maybe, given its text, we could call it Backlash?), so lemme chew on that notion.
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Kevin Wright
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Okay, so you play-testers and Sentinels demigods, which is (in general) more appropriate / more fun in the long run to have a hero do -- stop a villain target from doing damage for a turn, or stop a villain from playing any new cards in their play phase for a turn?
 
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Michael Hunter
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Frankly, I think they're both kind of overpowered, so I'd vote for preventing damage. When they can't play cards their turn is pretty boring, at least with a no damage turn they could do something dangerous - play a target or an ongoing or a one-shot that heals them or destroys equipment or such.
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Matthew Bishop
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I was also going to say "neither". I think it is generally more gratifying to look for other clever ways to get to those kind of "round of safety" effects, or clever penalties to offset their strengths.
But of the two, I agree with Adelophophage.

Make sure that whatever you go with isn't completely nullified by Heroic Save's bringing things back for free every round. Also, Overload's cost seems small to the point of irrelevance, and the destruction clause doesn't have any timing constraints.
 
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Christopher Webb
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tosx wrote:
I was also going to say "neither". I think it is generally more gratifying to look for other clever ways to get to those kind of "round of safety" effects, or clever penalties to offset their strengths.
But of the two, I agree with Adelophophage.

Make sure that whatever you go with isn't completely nullified by Heroic Save's bringing things back for free every round. Also, Overload's cost seems small to the point of irrelevance, and the destruction clause doesn't have any timing constraints.


While I don't count myself a playtester or a demigod, I have to agree with tosx here. All of the cards you have that increase his damage dealt only increase damage dealt to non hero targets and we all know how powerful legacy is even though his bonus only increases damage dealt by heroes and causes them to hurt themselves more. If you're looking to make this hero something of a blaster look at Ra's deck and consider his damage output per turn. ( or even his potential damage output per turn) this is a good number too be around ( not exactly that, but around there)
 
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Kevin Wright
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Adelphophage wrote:
I'd vote for preventing damage. When they can't play cards their turn is pretty boring, at least with a no damage turn they could do something dangerous - play a target or an ongoing or a one-shot that heals them or destroys equipment or such.

Makes good sense -- that's the direction that I've been leaning, too, even though it flies in the face of the original idea (see below).

tosx wrote:
Make sure that whatever you go with isn't completely nullified by Heroic Save's bringing things back for free every round.

Yeah, I've been rethinking that as well. No one else has mentioned it yet, but it's been seeming to me like it's an awfully potent Ongoing card. Should we make Heroic Save a One-shot (or an Ongoing card that destroys itself at the start of your turn) instead?

tosx wrote:
I think it is generally more gratifying to look for other clever ways to get to those kind of "round of safety" effects, or clever penalties to offset their strengths.

I'm all for "clever" here. I was trying to scale back but still nod to what villainous Infinitor does with his Crushing Cage card ("When this card enters play, put it in front of the hero character card belonging to the player with the most cards in hand. That player cannot play cards. At the start of that hero's turn, this card deals that hero and then itself 1 psychic and 1 energy damage.").

Anyone have any particularly clever ideas for how to do that for a hero?
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Regarding Capturing Cage, I had a similar effect with Bella's Will-o-Wisp. It was a low HP target that sat next to another target and prevented it from dealing damage. Considering the potential to ruin many villains that do all their own damage-dealing, I took the lead from H.E.R.O. and said:

If this is next to a character card, destroy this at the start of your turn.

That meant it was only a single turn de-buff to the likes of Iron Legacy or Plague Rat.

But it was still too strong. It could shut down Omnitron's Pulse Bombs forever (there's very few hit low or other hit all effects in that deck). I discovered that it blocks that damage from the thing it is next to and absorbs the attack to low HP hero target that injures and eventually kills it, pulling double duty.

So, to solve it, I don't have it prevent the target next to it from dealing damage--I have it redirect the damage dealt by the target next to it to the Wisp. This means that it can stop one big hit, or several small hits (depending on its HP and healing) or it can be taken out by an unexpected source of damage and not stop the target it is put next to, but does absorb the hit that takes it down. For the EPE Bombs, it protects one hero target, but the rest remain vulnerable. Fair, for one card play.

Best of, it can be placed next to the villain character, even one that handles all his own damage-dealing, without being disruptive.
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Christopher Webb
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RevKev2000 wrote:
Adelphophage wrote:
I'd vote for preventing damage. When they can't play cards their turn is pretty boring, at least with a no damage turn they could do something dangerous - play a target or an ongoing or a one-shot that heals them or destroys equipment or such.

Makes good sense -- that's the direction that I've been leaning, too, even though it flies in the face of the original idea (see below).

tosx wrote:
Make sure that whatever you go with isn't completely nullified by Heroic Save's bringing things back for free every round.

Yeah, I've been rethinking that as well. No one else has mentioned it yet, but it's been seeming to me like it's an awfully potent Ongoing card. Should we make Heroic Save a One-shot (or an Ongoing card that destroys itself at the start of your turn) instead?

tosx wrote:
I think it is generally more gratifying to look for other clever ways to get to those kind of "round of safety" effects, or clever penalties to offset their strengths.

I'm all for "clever" here. I was trying to scale back but still nod to what villainous Infinitor does with his Crushing Cage card ("When this card enters play, put it in front of the hero character card belonging to the player with the most cards in hand. That player cannot play cards. At the start of that hero's turn, this card deals that hero and then itself 1 psychic and 1 energy damage.").

Anyone have any particularly clever ideas for how to do that for a hero?


You did say he's supposed to be a make offense oriented version of
Cosmic right? Just focus on the damage and you should be fine. Another good example for building this deck to pull from would be comparing omnitron x with omnitron. That could give you a good idea of how an effect relates in power from a solo villain to a hero.
 
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Kevin Wright
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Regarding Capturing Cage, I had a similar effect with Bella's Will-o-Wisp. It was a low HP target that sat next to another target and prevented it from dealing damage. Considering the potential to ruin many villains that do all their own damage-dealing, I took the lead from H.E.R.O. and said:

If this is next to a character card, destroy this at the start of your turn.

That meant it was only a single turn de-buff to the likes of Iron Legacy or Plague Rat.

But it was still too strong. It could shut down Omnitron's Pulse Bombs forever (there's very few hit low or other hit all effects in that deck). I discovered that it blocks that damage from the thing it is next to and absorbs the attack to low HP hero target that injures and eventually kills it, pulling double duty.

So, to solve it, I don't have it prevent the target next to it from dealing damage--I have it redirect the damage dealt by the target next to it to the Wisp. This means that it can stop one big hit, or several small hits (depending on its HP and healing) or it can be taken out by an unexpected source of damage and not stop the target it is put next to, but does absorb the hit that takes it down. For the EPE Bombs, it protects one hero target, but the rest remain vulnerable. Fair, for one card play.

Best of, it can be placed next to the villain character, even one that handles all his own damage-dealing, without being disruptive.

Dude, I'm not sure if this qualifies you for being a genius or a Sentinels demigod, but you're officially my hero as of now. Seriously, this makes a lot of sense to me, on a number of different levels.

I'm totally running this idea up the flagpole (and it's currently WAY out in front as what I'm voting for). But to make it work, I'm gonna tweak the name (which I was never overly fond of) just a bit...
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