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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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A common question in these forums is if G-d exists why does He does prove it to the world and remove any doubt. The assumption sometimes stated with it is that no such reason exists. What I'm presenting in this thread is one traditional Orthodox Jewish answer to that question. The reader might not find it satisfactory which is fine but it demonstrates that such reasons might exist thereby undermining that specific argument against the existence of a deity.

In this idea, G-d is first and foremost a Creator, namely an artist or craftsman. To G-d, Creation is a single act but from our human point of view, Creation is a continuous process happening throughout time and space. The existence of humans as beings separate from G-d is then viewed as a necessary illusion in order for the universe to function properly.

Without some level of doubt that the G-d of Torah exists, then one would essentially know what to do in any arbitrary situation. One could choose not to do what G-d would want a person to do but doing so just makes no sense.

Without in a sense concealing G-d, the world would to function the way that G-d wants it to. We as human beings need meaningful choices. Definite knowledge of G-d in essence takes that away.
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Do I recall correctly that you believe G-d gave definite knowledge of His existence to those Jews with whom He made the agreement which essentially defines Judaism?
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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rinelk wrote:
Do I recall correctly that you believe G-d gave definite knowledge of His existence to those Jews with whom He made the agreement which essentially defines Judaism?

No, just enough evidence that they convinced themselves of it.
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Here's a view. I'm not sure I ever knew what this viewpoint is called.

Philosophically--not theologically, heaven forbid!--an omniscient and omnipotent G-d has implications. (I'm not sure these attributes are entirely consistent with any particular view of G-d.)

Omnipotent effectively means it's equally easy to do or not do something; it means it's equally easy to do or not do everything.

Because of omniscience, everything that happens, or doesn't happen, in the entire Universe happens, or doesn't happen, because of G-d.

That makes the Universe essentially the same as G-d: G-d didn't just make the Universe, it only exists and functions moment by moment because He explicitly wants it to. It's as easy for Him to remake the Universe or end it as to continue it.

(Alternatively, the atheist view is that only the Universe exists; the agnostic view is that the Universe being sapient, thinking, is unproven.)

In this view, it is absolutely clear that G-d exists (or the Universe exists). You only have doubt in the agnostic view.

If you distinguish the Universe from G-d, you implicitly make the argument that G-d can't make the Universe do anything He wants, so you're demoting G-d to god and deifying the Universe.

(Ignoring solipsism; don't bother to look it up: you won't care; not directed toward Moshe.)
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whac3 wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Do I recall correctly that you believe G-d gave definite knowledge of His existence to those Jews with whom He made the agreement which essentially defines Judaism?

No, just enough evidence that they convinced themselves of it.


Is there any reason we couldn't have evidence as good as they have?
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rinelk wrote:
Is there any reason we couldn't have evidence as good as they have?
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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rinelk wrote:
whac3 wrote:
rinelk wrote:
Do I recall correctly that you believe G-d gave definite knowledge of His existence to those Jews with whom He made the agreement which essentially defines Judaism?

No, just enough evidence that they convinced themselves of it.


Is there any reason we couldn't have evidence as good as they have?

Yes because it was a one time thing with G-d obviously present at Sinai for a bit more than a year in the presence of 600,000 people. It was a deviation for a purpose from the normal functioning of the universe in order to accomplish something. That something is done. In the Jewish view, G-d doesn't so much care if you literally believes He exists. He wants people to be decent to each other and to live their lives.

EDIT:
Basically the goal of the Jewish G-d is a Creation in which eventually He can be ignored completely as He enjoys His art-- the world.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Here's a view. I'm not sure I ever knew what this viewpoint is called.

Philosophically--not theologically, heaven forbid!--an omniscient and omnipotent G-d has implications. (I'm not sure these attributes are entirely consistent with any particular view of G-d.)

Omnipotent effectively means it's equally easy to do or not do something; it means it's equally easy to do or not do everything.

Because of omniscience, everything that happens, or doesn't happen, in the entire Universe happens, or doesn't happen, because of G-d.

That makes the Universe essentially the same as G-d: G-d didn't just make the Universe, it only exists and functions moment by moment because He explicitly wants it to. It's as easy for Him to remake the Universe or end it as to continue it.

(Alternatively, the atheist view is that only the Universe exists; the agnostic view is that the Universe being sapient, thinking, is unproven.)

In this view, it is absolutely clear that G-d exists (or the Universe exists). You only have doubt in the agnostic view.

If you distinguish the Universe from G-d, you implicitly make the argument that G-d can't make the Universe do anything He wants, so you're demoting G-d to god and deifying the Universe.

(Ignoring solipsism; don't bother to look it up: you won't care; not directed toward Moshe.)

That is pretty much a Jewish view of things.
 
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whac3 wrote:
That is pretty much a Jewish view of things.

Really? Does it have a name?
 
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Tall_Walt wrote:
whac3 wrote:
That is pretty much a Jewish view of things.

Really? Does it have a name?

Not that I know of
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whac3 wrote:
Without some level of doubt that the G-d of Torah exists, then one would essentially know what to do in any arbitrary situation. One could choose not to do what G-d would want a person to do but doing so just makes no sense.


I don't really see how that follows, nor how if it did it would be a bad thing. A lack of knowledge of something might always increase the likelihood of random actions, but that's hardly a good thing.

If there is a correct thing and an incorrect thing, and the correct thing is hidden from us, that's not a meaningful choice. That's just hiding the options. A meaningful choice is one where there is no automatically correct choice.

Compare a game with many, many choices for an action on a turn but only with one good one that's simply hard to find, with a game where there are only a couple of choices, but each choice has interesting consequences for the game. I know which I'd rather play, and which is closer to art.
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Without some level of doubt that the G-d of Torah exists, then one would essentially know what to do in any arbitrary situation. One could choose not to do what G-d would want a person to do but doing so just makes no sense.


I don't really see how that follows, nor how if it did it would be a bad thing. A lack of knowledge of something might always increase the likelihood of random actions, but that's hardly a good thing.

If there is a correct thing and an incorrect thing, and the correct thing is hidden from us, that's not a meaningful choice. That's just hiding the options. A meaningful choice is one where there is no automatically correct choice.

Compare a game with many, many choices for an action on a turn but only with one good one that's simply hard to find, with a game where there are only a couple of choices, but each choice has interesting consequences for the game. I know which I'd rather play, and which is closer to art.

The point is that "correct" is subjective. Being made in the image of G-d means we are little Creators. If we always do what the big Creator (if you will) would do, then there's no point in the little Creators. The idea is that we as human beings to fulfill our function need to seem to make our own decisions. Sure, in a sense it's G-d making them through us but if one accepts the premise this is a means by which G-d effectively increases His creative capacity.
 
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Andrew;

I think what I'm trying poorly to say is that we as human beings have an innate tendency to think of what G-d wants as being correct or right. It's as if one has a qualified judge whose absolute authority you accept there for every decision. To live our lives, we have to be able to make our own decisions in a meaningful manner.
 
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whac3 wrote:
The point is that "correct" is subjective. Being made in the image of G-d means we are little Creators. If we always do what the big Creator (if you will) would do, then there's no point in the little Creators. The idea is that we as human beings to fulfill our function need to seem to make our own decisions. Sure, in a sense it's G-d making them through us but if one accepts the premise this is a means by which G-d effectively increases His creative capacity.


Certainly. But if what is correct is subject, then the true essence of making a decision is in deciding what is correct, not deciding, for example, what is real.

If we always do what the big creator would do then there is no point. But why does knowing beyond a doubt that there is a big creator mean that we would always do what that big creator would do?

If we are to make our own decisions, then they should be decisions made on the basis of as much information as possible. Forcing someone to do what you want is a way of reducing their creative capacity. But so is hiding information about what the reality of the situation is.

I also don't think this fits at all with your ideas of everything being God acting, but that's a different topic.
 
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I didn't say just knowing a Creator exists but knowing what that Creator would do in any given situation. Of course this view which does not originate with me treats knowing G-d exists as impossible without knowing what He would want/do. That just ties in with how Jews define G-d.
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Without some level of doubt that the G-d of Torah exists, then one would essentially know what to do in any arbitrary situation. One could choose not to do what G-d would want a person to do but doing so just makes no sense.


I don't really see how that follows, nor how if it did it would be a bad thing. A lack of knowledge of something might always increase the likelihood of random actions, but that's hardly a good thing.

If there is a correct thing and an incorrect thing, and the correct thing is hidden from us, that's not a meaningful choice. That's just hiding the options. A meaningful choice is one where there is no automatically correct choice.

Compare a game with many, many choices for an action on a turn but only with one good one that's simply hard to find, with a game where there are only a couple of choices, but each choice has interesting consequences for the game. I know which I'd rather play, and which is closer to art.


Yes.

Not knowing about gravity is not a meaningful nor useful thing, making the choice of whether to walk off a cliff a faith-like decision. Clearly it is much better to know about gravity and never walk of cliffs, because that's the right thing to do. Why should the right thing to do not be the choice made 99.99% of the time?

I'm sorry Moshe, but your OP sounds like metaphysical sophistry. Moreover, there is no connection between it and any form of evidence. If I would take an hour, I'd come up with an equally self-consistent and interesting explanation, as I'm sure one could come up with another 10,000.


For those not in the know, when one studies the Torah, Mishnah, Talmud, the main texts are surrounded by glosses, then glosses of the gloss and then even more glosses of that gloss, that all seek, essentially, to explain the very many inconsistencies in the texts.

When studying Rashi, Rambam, Ramban, Oncolous, it was around when I was 13 that I started to think, "wow, those are pretty damn convoluted lines of reasoning."

I love the Exodus story. And, I'm sure God had an un-understandable grand master plan--the usual default explanation--but life would be a lot less gruesome if God showed some transparency. He clearly cared about the Hebrews' suffering but was OK with 400 years' worth. And, it seems pretty sadistic to have hardened Pharoah's heart. And, what about that the promised land, 400 years on, was now obviously filled with other people, etc.

Yes, I know, the sages have explanations for all of it. But, it's all such convoluted logic that wouldn't pass muster today in any reasonable conversation on any topic.

And then, I'm just a contrarian, the final default position of religious thinking.
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whac3 wrote:
I didn't say just knowing a Creator exists but knowing what that Creator would do in any given situation. Of course this view which does not originate with me treats knowing G-d exists as impossible without knowing what He would want/do. That just ties in with how Jews define G-d.


Then that's a slightly different question. But still, I think the same point applies. Knowing what God would do only implies that we should do that as well if the decision actually is rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

A genuinely interesting decision is one where you have the same information (preferably as much as possible of the relevant information) as someone else, whether another person or God, yet can still make a different decision.

If I make a decision that is different from what God would have done, and knowing what God would have done would mean I would have done differently, then I haven't really made a different decision due to my own beliefs or self or whatever. I've made a different decision due to ignorance. If I make a decision different to what God would have done knowing that God would have done differently, then that is a moral/artistic/creative/as you like difference.

If the latter is the important thing, then more information never hurts. If it's the latter, then we can all easily be more ignorant and make even wilder 'creative' decisions.
 
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Isaac;

First, I don't contend such a thing could ever be proven. On the contrary, I insist it could not be. All I claim for it is that it is a traditional view of why G-d isn't here signing autographs.
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:

I think I'm expressing myself badly, in part because I'm expressing a traditional view, not really something I came up with myself. The issues you raise seem to me to be addressed though by saying that if we really understood G-d, we'd be overwhelmed. I understand it like a cult of personality.It's not that we'd make a differnet decision out of ignorance nor that G-d's decision is correct. Rather in each of us G-d is sort of role playing, taking on a different personality. Really perceiving G-d would mean we see it's only role-playing and so we'd make decisions "out of character".

See? D&D really is a spiritual experience.
 
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whac3 wrote:
The issues you raise seem to me to be addressed though by saying that if we really understood G-d, we'd be overwhelmed.


Again, this seems like an entirely different point. But still, could God not create beings that this wasn't true of?

Though if we really are God roleplaying then any ignorance on our part is purely illusionary. Indeed, any decisions or artistic expression on our part is purely illusionary.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The issues you raise seem to me to be addressed though by saying that if we really understood G-d, we'd be overwhelmed.


Again, this seems like an entirely different point. But still, could God not create beings that this wasn't true of?

Though if we really are God roleplaying then any ignorance on our part is purely illusionary. Indeed, any decisions or artistic expression on our part is purely illusionary.

In this view, so is the world.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The issues you raise seem to me to be addressed though by saying that if we really understood G-d, we'd be overwhelmed.


Again, this seems like an entirely different point. But still, could God not create beings that this wasn't true of?

Though if we really are God roleplaying then any ignorance on our part is purely illusionary. Indeed, any decisions or artistic expression on our part is purely illusionary.

In this view, so is the world.


Certainly, so the answer to the question (and indeed most questions imo) about why God doesn't reveal himself to us is that he does reveal himself to us because he is us and we don't really exist.

Though this calls back into question the reason for creation in the first place. If it is genuinely to get lots of little creators creating things from a genuinely different point of view, then this whole illusionary existence doesn't achieve that.

Even in the most intense roleplay experience, you are ultimately still only deriving things from yourself. Your character is still coming from you, even if you are 'deep' inside it, short of some genuine dis-associative personality disorder.

So, is the point of creation to get some genuine, real new little creators? In which case, some separateness is needed. If on the other hand we're actually not making decisions separate from God, then God is actually making all the creative decisions. There are no little creators, that's just the big creator pretending. In the former case, knowledge of what God may or may not do is something that would be helpful to know, if not the only thing to base our decision on. In the latter, the question is rather irrelevant.

It would be like a character in a story why the writer doesn't reveal themselves to them. The writer doesn't because the character doesn't exist. The character doesn't have any creative impulse, because they aren't real. The writer isn't getting help creating their story from the characters (though that might be a helpful fiction for them). They are just writing something.
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You're right`but there's value in the POV that treats this world as real.
 
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