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Red Poppies Campaigns: The Battles for Ypres» Forums » Rules

Subject: Order of actions rss

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Michel Ouimet
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EDITED
I'm a bit confused. Rule 6.9 tells us to resolve in the following order the consequences of a move : reaction fire, lost test, rally, melee. But 6.72 tells us to reaction fire only after the consequences of the movement are fully implemented (ex.: a unit entering a trench and initiating a melee must resolve the melee first).

Personally, I would apply the two following principles :
1) Execute all the consequences of the expenditure of the MP (ex.: lost test first).
2) Follow it with the reaction fire and any other possible action.

Let's examine some cases :
- Unit spends 1MP to enter a hex (other than heavy wood) : 1. Reaction fire. 2. Rally.
- Unit spends 1MP to enter heavy wood (off road) OR to enter a hex at night (off road or enemy trench) : 1. Lost test. 2. Reaction fire. 3. Rally.
- Unit spends 1MP to enter a trench (without initiating a melee) : 1. Reaction fire.
- Unit spends 1MP to enter a trench and initiate a melee : 1. Melee. 2. Reaction fire.
- Unit spends 1MP to initiate a melee (in its starting hex) : 1. Melee. 2. Reaction fire.

Am I right/wrong all the way through?

Note: If I understand well the rules, the rally action can only occur when the unit is entering into a new hex. It can't occur if a unit is entering a trench in its starting hex, for example.
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Michel Ouimet
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I reformulated the above cases after realizing that the rally action can only occur when a unit enter a new hex.
 
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John Gorkowski
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Michel

Yes, I see your point. This is the unintended consequence of trying to clarify points from the 1st edition. Rule 6.9 should take precedence with an important footnote for 6.72. The idea behind 6.72 is that when you pay a point to enter a hex you immediately derive any available cover for which you qualify BEFORE reaction fire. So if you enter woods or shell hole, etc, those protect you immediately. Note, you'd have to pay yet another point to enter a trench and so would not derive cover from it until you had done so. Other than that, go with 6.9.

So if you pay one MP to enter a trench for melee, but are targeted for reaction fire, here's the sequence: 1) you get trench cover, 2) you suffer reaction fire, 3) you fight melee.

Thanks
John
 
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Michel Ouimet
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Thanks for this fast reply.

So entering a heavy wood triggers the following sequence : 1) the unit immediately gets the wood cover, 2) it gets the reaction fire, 3) it passes a lost test, 4) it eventually rallies a friendly unit.

Is that it?

EDITED
If yes, it contradicts the 3.8 rule : "In either case [passing or failing a rally test], the moving unit would then face any reaction fire triggered by its move and could – assuming it survives and has movement points remaining – continue moving."
 
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John Gorkowski
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Here again, let's give 6.9 precedence.
 
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Michel Ouimet
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Great. The tour's now completed, I guess. :-)
 
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John Gorkowski
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Yes, just go with 6.9 OVER other rules when there is a disagreement. That's why we created 6.9. During testing, players noted some confusion about the order of operations and so established 6.9. Unfortunately, we did not then expunge those earlier references to other orders which created the confusion in the first place.

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John
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Gerrit Hellfaier
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@John @Michel

Sorry guys, but for a not natural english tongue is it hard to translate into another language sometimes.

If a unit moves into a another hex which gives cover because of its type (for instance heavy wood) the unit is immediately covered (before reaction).
If a unit moves into a another hex and needs to spend another movement point to get the cover effect (for instance blockhouse or trench) then a reaction of the passive player is possible before the aktive unit reaches cover.

Is this a correct interpretation?

Thanks

Gerrit
 
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Gerrit Hellfaier
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Johns answer from Consimworld:

"correct"


Malleus_Berlin wrote:
@John @Michel

Sorry guys, but for a not natural english tongue is it hard to translate into another language sometimes.

If a unit moves into a another hex which gives cover because of its type (for instance heavy wood) the unit is immediately covered (before reaction).
If a unit moves into a another hex and needs to spend another movement point to get the cover effect (for instance blockhouse or trench) then a reaction of the passive player is possible before the aktive unit reaches cover.

Is this a correct interpretation?

Thanks

Gerrit
 
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Michel Ouimet
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I'm a bit confused here.

John says above : "So if you pay one MP to enter a trench for melee, but are targeted for reaction fire, here's the sequence: 1) YOU GET TRENCH COVER, 2) you suffer reaction fire, 3) you fight melee."

But Gerrit tells us that he's saying the contrary on Comsimworld : "If a unit moves into a another hex and needs to spend another movement point to get the cover effect (for instance blockhouse or trench) then a reaction of the passive player is possible BEFORE the aktive unit reaches cover."

What to think...


 
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Gerrit Hellfaier
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Hi Michel,

I follow the discussion at cosimworld and there are sometimes different answers based on a different presentation of the same problem.

You blow your pipe to give your guys the order to storm from a clear hex into an area with an enemy trench (another hex):
- the company stand up and start running (1 MP)
- the enemy fill up the trench and has the option to open fire (RF)
- then your lines reach the trench and tries to jump into it spades and knives ready (1 MP)
- the enemy is not ready to give up and has another option to react (RF), before the trench covered both

If your troops are directly in front of the trench (same hex), you need to go into the trench while the enemy fires. Same problem in my eyes: reaction fire first then melee.

What do you think?
 
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Michel Ouimet
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Thanks Gerrit.

I'm not sure, as it is always easier to stick to a unique rule : you get cover protection first, then the reaction fire.

In the case of a trench hex:
• you spend 1MP to enter the hex (staying out of the enemy trench) and get reaction fire while being protected by the terrain feature;
• then you spend one more PM to enter the enemy trench (wanting to create melee or not) and get another reaction fire while being protected by the trench.

I would prefer that simpler interpretation. :-)
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Michel Ouimet
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Got the boss' answer from PM (below): "That's correct."

moet wrote:
Hi John.
Sorry to bother you again about the interpretation of Battles for Ypres rules, but I would like to a have a formal confirmation that the "getting cover protection first" rule does apply when a unit enters a trench :
1. The unit spends one MP to enter the hex (staying out of the enemy trench) and get reaction fire while being protected by the terrain feature.
2. Then the unit spend one more PM to enter the enemy trench (wanting to create melee or not) and get another reaction fire while being protected by the trench.
Is this right?
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Matt D
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Is 6.9 correct? I thought you resolved melee before resolving reaction fire.
 
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Michel Ouimet
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Yes, your resolve melee before reaction fire :

Case 1 : You are in the trench hex but still out of the trench: you spent 1 MP (triggering reaction fire) to enter the trench and start the melee, first you get the trench cover, then you do the melee and then, if you're still alive, you get the reaction fire.
Case 2 : You are already in the trench (benefiting from trench cover): you spent 1 MP (triggering reaction fire) to start the melee, then you do the melee and then, if you're still alive, you get the reaction fire.

Note that the reaction fire never comes from one of the enemy unit participating to the melee, since that unit will be spent by the melee.
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