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Subject: Marital harmony in the balance - We need your help! rss

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Daniel Royle
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Hi BGG community,

Today for my birthday my wife bought me a copy of TSON. We played a game straight away with my mother and we had a great time...for the most part. This brings me to seeking your advice on the rules.

Here's the scenario:

My wife is the Sheriff and we're in the Inspection phase. I have declared to have 3 chickens (I actually have 2 chickens and a Pepper). My wife, as the Sheriff says "Pay me 5", I immediately agree and put 5 coins on my bag.

My wife then says "Because you agreed to that bribe I think you're smuggling. I don't trust you and I want to inspect your bag". There then followed a 10 min 'debate' over the "All deals must be honored" rule.

Here's my interpretation is as follows:
My wife made an offer of a deal (Pay me 5), I agreed therefore a deal was reached and she had to honor our deal and let me pass without inspection.

My wife's interprets the situation as follows:
She did not offer me a deal but more of a suggestion, in fact it was a baiting strategy to see if I would agree and in turn help her to determine if I'm telling the truth.

I know there are two exceptions to the 'Honor all deals' rule; 1. Future promises & 2. When offering goods from your bag, neither of which are applicable.

So after much post game 'debate' my wife has agreed that I take the decision out of our hands and put it to the professionals. I have tried to be as objective in my explanation as possible and have had my wife read over it before publishing.

Thank you for your help in this most urgent of matters
 
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Adam Hostetler
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hmmm, tough one. I think it comes down to weather she ever actually accepted the money. Did she ever pick up the bag with the money on top?

If not, I would allow it. This is similar to a cop hinting that he might take a bribe, then arresting you for actually trying.
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Andrew Kluessendorf
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I have to agree with your wife. When we play, the negotiation is completed either when the sheriff opens the snap on the bag and inspects it or the sheriff passes the bag back to the player. Now if she had taken the coins and handed you back your bag and then changed her mind, I might see if differently.

Although being your birthday I might have let you win and then put it up for a rules debate on BGG the day after your birthday!
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Daniel Royle
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Thanks for your help Adam. She did not pick up the bag or the $5 I had offered.

Ok, so it's 1-0 to the wife...any other opinions?
 
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Daniel Royle
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Andrew, thank you for you opinion. I like the snapping and unsnapping of the bag as the final act. 2-0 to the wife.
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Adam Hostetler
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Yes, unsnapping the bag is the way to go.
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A J
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Hmm....yeah, that's tough. But I'd say the deal is sealed when the snapping occurs. It's sort of a douche move, though. She doesn't set herself up for the meta very well and decreases her trustworthiness, because how many times are you going to fall for that trick again?
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Philip Mazzone
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Have to side with your wife on this one. If all she said was Pay Me 5, then you mistakenly interpreted that as If you pay 5 she will let you pass. She didnt say that. Just pay me 5. Not pay me 5 and you can pass.

How we play is after everyone puts cards in their bag, all bags go to the sheriff. No matter what deal is discussed or what offers are made, nothing is final unless 1 the sheriff hands you back your bag and takes an offer, or 2 the sheriff opens the bag.

Until that point, anything goes.
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Rob Tarr
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If all she said was literally "Pay me 5", then there's no other side of the deal to be honored. You inferred that she would then return your bag to you, but that wasn't part of the offer. She said "Pay me 5" and you did. Deal over.

However, if she said "Pay me 5 and I won't open your bag", then she is in the wrong. She made an offer and you accepted the offer. Therefore, a deal was made and must be honored.

I've seen "I've changed my mind" stuff happen after an offer is made and accepted, and it can really derail the game.
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Peter Mulholland
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tarrkid wrote:
If all she said was literally "Pay me 5", then there's no other side of the deal to be honored. You inferred that she would then return your bag to you, but that wasn't part of the offer. She said "Pay me 5" and you did. Deal over.

However, if she said "Pay me 5 and I won't open your bag", then she is in the wrong. She made an offer and you accepted the offer. Therefore, a deal was made and must be honored.



This.
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Mike B
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ayejae wrote:
Hmm....yeah, that's tough. But I'd say the deal is sealed when the snapping occurs. It's sort of a douche move, though. She doesn't set herself up for the meta very well and decreases her trustworthiness, because how many times are you going to fall for that trick again?


I agree with this. While she is well within her rights to go back on her deal, exercising that right is not without consequence. She is going to have a hard time making deals later in the game (or in future games). In negotiation games such as this, the meta game is the whole thing, and if you paint yourself as untrustworthy, you might not be able to make good deals later on.

No negotiation is ever final until either:
a) the Sherriff snaps open the bag or,
b) the player receives their bag back from the Sherriff.
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Daniel Royle
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Thanks AJ, you're right, it was a douche move. She is such a douche laugh

But I accept your verdict.
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Brian Slattery
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In my groups, your wife would win. Final decision is when the snap is opened, or the bag is tossed back.

Multiple times I have deployed the "King's Royal Decree" bluff...I declare as the sheriff that the King declared whomever pays the highest bribe will pass unchecked. Then someone slams down ten gold, and I promptly call the player a bleedin' fool, open his bag, and find it full of contraband.

Only a matter of time before the meta game stops that one.
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William Aull
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PeterM2158 wrote:
tarrkid wrote:
If all she said was literally "Pay me 5", then there's no other side of the deal to be honored. You inferred that she would then return your bag to you, but that wasn't part of the offer. She said "Pay me 5" and you did. Deal over.

However, if she said "Pay me 5 and I won't open your bag", then she is in the wrong. She made an offer and you accepted the offer. Therefore, a deal was made and must be honored.



This.


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A J
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royley85 wrote:
Thanks AJ, you're right, it was a douche move. She is such a douche laugh

But I accept your verdict.


Hey now, I said the move was douche! Hate sin, love the sinner! laugh
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Kenny Johnson
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This is the FAQ.
Quote:

When is a deal considered complete?A: A deal is considered complete when an offer is accepted. Most of the time this should be fairly intuitive. The Sheriff may say, “I will let your bag pass for 5 gold.” If the merchant accepts that offer, then the deal is complete. The merchant must pay the Sheriff the 5 gold and the Sheriff must let their bag pass. An offer is a specific deal proposed. It contains clear and specific conditions, such as, “I will let you pass, if you pay me 5 gold.” The rest of the negotiation is haggling. Until there is a clear offer to accept or reject then everything is still open. However, be careful of your wording and your suggestions as it is possible the other party may accept your offer when you were hoping to continue negotiating. If there is any confusion about when an offer is accepted, then just use the word “deal”. If you accept, responding with “deal” is a clear way to finish the offer. To conclude you simply carry out the deal and conclude by returning the merchant bag.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq1a055z3990obr/Sheriff%20FAQ%20V1...

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Daniel Royle
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Well, I think it's clear that the BGG community has betrayed me and I will be spending the next day or so pulling the knife from my back as my wife looks on smiling laugh

Seriously thanks for the help. We'll be sure to use the snapping open of merchants bags or the passing back of merchant bags as the end of negotiations. Up until that point no deals have been struck and anything goes.
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A J
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royley85 wrote:
Well, I think it's clear that the BGG community has betrayed me and I will be spending the next day or so pulling the knife from my back as my wife looks on smiling laugh

Seriously thanks for the help. We'll be sure to use the snapping open of merchants bags or the passing back of merchant bags as the end of negotiations. Up until that point no deals have been struck and anything goes.


Or houserule something you both can agree on. I liked what Daniel posted.
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michael ray
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kennyj wrote:
This is the FAQ.
Quote:

When is a deal considered complete?A: A deal is considered complete when an offer is accepted. Most of the time this should be fairly intuitive. The Sheriff may say, “I will let your bag pass for 5 gold.” If the merchant accepts that offer, then the deal is complete. The merchant must pay the Sheriff the 5 gold and the Sheriff must let their bag pass. An offer is a specific deal proposed. It contains clear and specific conditions, such as, “I will let you pass, if you pay me 5 gold.” The rest of the negotiation is haggling. Until there is a clear offer to accept or reject then everything is still open. However, be careful of your wording and your suggestions as it is possible the other party may accept your offer when you were hoping to continue negotiating. If there is any confusion about when an offer is accepted, then just use the word “deal”. If you accept, responding with “deal” is a clear way to finish the offer. To conclude you simply carry out the deal and conclude by returning the merchant bag.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq1a055z3990obr/Sheriff%20FAQ%20V1...



I feel like this says everyone else has been playing this wrong. (Because the rules cite handing the bag back or snapping it open as the final say, however this FAQ disagrees with that)

She said 'pay me five', you agreed. At that point the deal is agreed on and done.

The entire point of the negotiation stage is to get your bag thru unopened, there is no need to specify what the bribe is for, it's the only reason you're negotiating to begin with.
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Kenny Johnson
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squegeeboo wrote:
kennyj wrote:
This is the FAQ.
Quote:

When is a deal considered complete?A: A deal is considered complete when an offer is accepted. Most of the time this should be fairly intuitive. The Sheriff may say, “I will let your bag pass for 5 gold.” If the merchant accepts that offer, then the deal is complete. The merchant must pay the Sheriff the 5 gold and the Sheriff must let their bag pass. An offer is a specific deal proposed. It contains clear and specific conditions, such as, “I will let you pass, if you pay me 5 gold.” The rest of the negotiation is haggling. Until there is a clear offer to accept or reject then everything is still open. However, be careful of your wording and your suggestions as it is possible the other party may accept your offer when you were hoping to continue negotiating. If there is any confusion about when an offer is accepted, then just use the word “deal”. If you accept, responding with “deal” is a clear way to finish the offer. To conclude you simply carry out the deal and conclude by returning the merchant bag.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq1a055z3990obr/Sheriff%20FAQ%20V1...



I feel like this says everyone else has been playing this wrong. (Because the rules cite handing the bag back or snapping it open as the final say, however this FAQ disagrees with that)

She said 'pay me five', you agreed. At that point the deal is agreed on and done.

The entire point of the negotiation stage is to get your bag thru unopened, there is no need to specify what the bribe is for, it's the only reason you're negotiating to begin with.


That was my initial reaction at first, but assuming the wording is correct, there was not specific deal agreed to. She simply said "Pay me 5." Yes, it was obviously implied that she meant "Pay me 5 and I won't look in your bag" but it wasn't what was explicitly said. And the FAQ says, "An offer is a specific deal proposed. It contains clear and specific conditions."

In this case, there wasn't a specific deal with clear and specific conditions.

A clever response would have been, "Pay you $5 for what, Sheriff?"

Or even role play it a bit...

Now -- to play devil's advocate, I don't like that kind of stuff. To me, the request implied the bag wouldn't be inspected and the deal should be honored... but the FAQ I would say disagrees with me and you.

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michael ray
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kennyj wrote:


That was my initial reaction at first, but assuming the wording is correct, there was not specific deal agreed to. She simply said "Pay me 5." Yes, it was obviously implied that she meant "Pay me 5 and I won't look in your bag" but it wasn't what was explicitly said. And the FAQ says, "An offer is a specific deal proposed. It contains clear and specific conditions."

In this case, there wasn't a specific deal with clear and specific conditions.

A clever response would have been, "Pay you $5 for what, Sheriff?"

Or even role play it a bit...

Now -- to play devil's advocate, I don't like that kind of stuff. To me, the request implied the bag wouldn't be inspected and the deal should be honored... but the FAQ I would say disagrees with me and you.



That's fair. I guess it just goes onto the heap of house 'clarifications' for new players along with if your group allows card trading as part of the bribe.
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Daniel Royle
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Michael Ray, MY MAN!
 
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Matt Onyx
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A little late to this party, but I would say the simple "Pay my 5" would be shorthand for "And i'll let you through", given the circumstances of the game. A bribe is never accepted for any other reason (barring house rules), so if she proposed the deal and you agreed then she is bound by the rules to honor it.
Seems a lot of people here disagree with this, but... It just makes sense.
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steve sherbert
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Your wife proposed a deal, you accepted it, so the deal is done. The FAQ says something along the lines of "be careful with the wording of your proposals, because once an offer is accepted, you are bound to it".

IMO, the fact that she didn't specifically say "Give me 5 gold and in exchange I won't open your bag" is irrelevant because of course whether to open the bag or not is literally the only thing that could possibly be being discussed!
 
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steve sherbert
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BriBriSlat wrote:
In my groups, your wife would win. Final decision is when the snap is opened, or the bag is tossed back.

Multiple times I have deployed the "King's Royal Decree" bluff...I declare as the sheriff that the King declared whomever pays the highest bribe will pass unchecked. Then someone slams down ten gold, and I promptly call the player a bleedin' fool, open his bag, and find it full of contraband.

Only a matter of time before the meta game stops that one.


The FAQ clearly sides against you in this instance.
 
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