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Subject: Opinions and thoughts on campaign play rss

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Rob Treasure
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Not gunna lie, campaign play is one of the things I am most looking forward to with DS. I'm a huge fan of the Soulsborne games so I'm keen to recreate some/all of the games in an ongoing campaign with levelling up, thematic locations etc.

Having played the demo and grilled the two junior designers that were at UK games expo I backed it, finally convinced that they were putting in a lot of time for it to be a 'toolbox' for fan-based stuff.

So, my questions...

- To what extent do you think it will lend itself to campaign play?

- What do you think is essential to make this work?

- Am I smoking something and is it going to just be pick up and play levels? *sadface*
 
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I don't think it will be possible to recreate any game fully as enemies etc in the board game are spread against 3 games. If you wanted to recreate the undead burg for example we are missing the Taurus demon, Havel and the red drake that gaurds the bridge. But the gargoyles are good to go. Likewise for any area except possibly the iron keep, and that's assuming you buy the old iron King and executioners chariot. Even Darkroot basins expansion is missing the moonlight butterfly boss.

Sorry to burst your bubble but we might be able to invent new campaigns with what we do have.
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Rob Treasure
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I think (or rather like to think) that given time, lots of those blanks will be filled in. So I suppose the better question is - given a good release schedule and *most* of the content needed for roughly 'levels' etc, do you think the game overall will lend itself to long campaign play?


vincentdante wrote:
I don't think it will be possible to recreate any game fully as enemies etc in the board game are spread against 3 games. If you wanted to recreate the undead burg for example we are missing the Taurus demon, Havel and the red drake that gaurds the bridge. But the gargoyles are good to go. Likewise for any area except possibly the iron keep, and that's assuming you buy the old iron King and executioners chariot. Even Darkroot basins expansion is missing the moonlight butterfly boss.

Sorry to burst your bubble but we might be able to invent new campaigns with what we do have.
 
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Possibly, it would be good but also very expensive going by current prices I don't know how in depth campaign play is but at the same time nothing is stopping you from making the system yourself when it comes out. And perhaps someone here will create campaign rules if they end up lacking
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Rob Treasure
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Reckon that is exactly what will happen Even from what I have seen there's a really rich toolkit so far.

Want.

Now.

Thank you.
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Sort of on this topic I'm very excited to see what expansions and mega bosses we might see later. I have a little wish list lol.

Expansions I want:
Painted world of Ariamis
Irythill of the boreal valley
Dukes Archives

Mega bosses I want:
Gravelord Nito
Nameless King (with Wyvern mount model and unmounted 2nd model for both forms).
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Rob Treasure
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I (but very much not my bank account) is hoping they do all of them to be honest!

I suppose my logical mind wants some sort of order to it too so I can play through Undead Burg, then next area, then Darkroot etc.

As I type that I feel poorer already
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I posted about this in one of the other forums, that I just don't see how campaign play is going to work.

With the first wave of bosses at least, the bosses have been selected based on being mechanically different. But that doesn't gel with the the different era's, or locations of the Souls games (at least the way I interpret them) Even the bosses in the core game, the Dancer and Ornstein and Smough have no thematic or chronological connection.

Its like how in the first wave they only have the Four Kings out of the first games four main bosses, without having Nito, Seath or Bed of Chaos (though lord only knows how that would work mechanically) and most of Dark Souls II's bosses are skipped entirely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to this game, but I remain highly sceptical about how effective its going to be at providing a Souls experience.
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Rob Treasure
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I think more than that, I would like to know how the levelling and upgrades system works.

It looks almost entirely geared toward the one or two step short skirmish play at the moment (pick boss, pick mega boss, plough through in an hour or two, upgrade a bit, get some equipment). I want to know how that extends or at least is open to campaign play and saving the game between sessions, upgrading further etc.

Suspect we will get some text in the rulebook and maybe a scenario or two in the base set but that a lot of the campaign play might be left to the community to design with maybe an official expansion when there is more complete content to work with?

*hopes*
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The Waspman wrote:
I posted about this in one of the other forums, that I just don't see how campaign play is going to work.

With the first wave of bosses at least, the bosses have been selected based on being mechanically different. But that doesn't gel with the the different era's, or locations of the Souls games (at least the way I interpret them) Even the bosses in the core game, the Dancer and Ornstein and Smough have no thematic or chronological connection.

Its like how in the first wave they only have the Four Kings out of the first games four main bosses, without having Nito, Seath or Bed of Chaos (though lord only knows how that would work mechanically) and most of Dark Souls II's bosses are skipped entirely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to this game, but I remain highly sceptical about how effective its going to be at providing a Souls experience.


Well you could say the dancer was the daughter of Gwynevere whom Ornstein and Smough were guarding if you really want a connection

But yeah this is pretty much my thoughts as I posted above. We shall see in time.
 
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The Reaper wrote:
I think more than that, I would like to know how the levelling and upgrades system works.

It looks almost entirely geared toward the one or two step short skirmish play at the moment (pick boss, pick mega boss, plough through in an hour or two, upgrade a bit, get some equipment). I want to know how that extends or at least is open to campaign play and saving the game between sessions, upgrading further etc.

Suspect we will get some text in the rulebook and maybe a scenario or two in the base set but that a lot of the campaign play might be left to the community to design with maybe an official expansion when there is more complete content to work with?

*hopes*



That is what I have on my mind, too. By campaign it doesn't have to be the plot from the Dark Souls games from 1 to 3. It is more about the developement of the player characters by leveling. I would like to see my hero get stronger and better (or better equipment) to use it against stronger bosses and mega bosses.

Maybe it would be fine in a way like Kingdom Death: Monster is. In that game you develope a small settlement and hunt different monsters to gain resources which you can use to build new weapons and armor, to procreate or to gain new innovations and locations. The monsters have different levels of difficulty which result in higher rewards, so the players choose what to hunt next. At some stages in the game you have Nemesis-encounters which can be compared to tough bosses.

To get back to Dark Souls I would love to the a campaign-mode in a similar way: the players go through a scenario to defeat standard enemies an smaller bosses to prepare themselves to face a megaboss. Afterwards they would go on to explore another area to get even better and encounter the next boss, which might be stronger then. This would require some span of difficulty among the mega bosses as it was in the DS games (i.e. The Asylum-Demon was nothing compared to Smough & Orni). That would allow to create a ladder system from the easiest to the hardest bosses and even the normal enemies. Beyond that I could imagine to have different difficulty levels for all enemies like you had in the New Game + or with the Bonfire Ascetics.

Depending on the way damage, health and rewards are managed in the game I can imagine that even if there'll be no campaign mode in the official rules, there'll be a way to create one.
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Frucht wrote:
That is what I have on my mind, too. By campaign it doesn't have to be the plot from the Dark Souls games from 1 to 3. It is more about the developement of the player characters by leveling. I would like to see my hero get stronger and better (or better equipment) to use it against stronger bosses and mega bosses.

Maybe it would be fine in a way like Kingdom Death: Monster is. In that game you develope a small settlement and hunt different monsters to gain resources which you can use to build new weapons and armor, to procreate or to gain new innovations and locations. The monsters have different levels of difficulty which result in higher rewards, so the players choose what to hunt next. At some stages in the game you have Nemesis-encounters which can be compared to tough bosses.

To get back to Dark Souls I would love to the a campaign-mode in a similar way: the players go through a scenario to defeat standard enemies an smaller bosses to prepare themselves to face a megaboss. Afterwards they would go on to explore another area to get even better and encounter the next boss, which might be stronger then. This would require some span of difficulty among the mega bosses as it was in the DS games (i.e. The Asylum-Demon was nothing compared to Smough & Orni). That would allow to create a ladder system from the easiest to the hardest bosses and even the normal enemies. Beyond that I could imagine to have different difficulty levels for all enemies like you had in the New Game + or with the Bonfire Ascetics.

I think you've touched on what makes KD:M so special: all the thought that went into crafting it. The building of this monster so that it's beatable with the gear that you have, but also with the forethought that the gear you get from it will then prepare you to defeat the next monster.

Connecting everything together like that? I mean that takes a lot of time and effort. But mostly time, which a lot of these guys just flat don't have.

They are under the gun, they don't have years to develop a game like Poots did. They'll have to make do with what they can get done. And so will we, unfortunately.

I used to wonder why we didn't have more games like KD:M or MKBG or Gloomhaven, games that weren't ok with being average, but wanted to be amazing. I used to think it came down to effort, but now I realize it mostly comes down to man-hours. Genius takes time, and I just don't think these guys have enough of it in most cases.

Instead in DS we'll get a mediocre board game that was almost good, and with a bit more time behind it, could have been, should have been, amazing.
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Exo Desta wrote:
Frucht wrote:
That is what I have on my mind, too. By campaign it doesn't have to be the plot from the Dark Souls games from 1 to 3. It is more about the developement of the player characters by leveling. I would like to see my hero get stronger and better (or better equipment) to use it against stronger bosses and mega bosses.

Maybe it would be fine in a way like Kingdom Death: Monster is. In that game you develope a small settlement and hunt different monsters to gain resources which you can use to build new weapons and armor, to procreate or to gain new innovations and locations. The monsters have different levels of difficulty which result in higher rewards, so the players choose what to hunt next. At some stages in the game you have Nemesis-encounters which can be compared to tough bosses.

To get back to Dark Souls I would love to the a campaign-mode in a similar way: the players go through a scenario to defeat standard enemies an smaller bosses to prepare themselves to face a megaboss. Afterwards they would go on to explore another area to get even better and encounter the next boss, which might be stronger then. This would require some span of difficulty among the mega bosses as it was in the DS games (i.e. The Asylum-Demon was nothing compared to Smough & Orni). That would allow to create a ladder system from the easiest to the hardest bosses and even the normal enemies. Beyond that I could imagine to have different difficulty levels for all enemies like you had in the New Game + or with the Bonfire Ascetics.

I think you've touched on what makes KD:M so special: all the thought that went into crafting it. The building of this monster so that it's beatable with the gear that you have, but also with the forethought that the gear you get from it will then prepare you to defeat the next monster.

Connecting everything together like that? I mean that takes a lot of time and effort. But mostly time, which a lot of these guys just flat don't have.

They are under the gun, they don't have years to develop a game like Poots did. They'll have to make do with what they can get done. And so will we, unfortunately.

I used to wonder why we didn't have more games like KD:M or MKBG or Gloomhaven, games that weren't ok with being average, but wanted to be amazing. I used to think it came down to effort, but now I realize it mostly comes down to man-hours. Genius takes time, and I just don't think these guys have enough of it in most cases.

Instead in DS we'll get a mediocre board game that was almost good, and with a bit more time behind it, could have been, should have been, amazing.


Well I do hope it's better than mediocre. But you're right about time constraints I fear. I know they mentioned a campaign before but until they tell us what it is we simply have no choice but to speculate in this thread
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vincentdante wrote:
Well I do hope it's better than mediocre. But you're right about time constraints I fear. I know they mentioned a campaign before but until they tell us what it is we simply have no choice but to speculate in this thread

I would be happy to be wrong -- and please don't let my skepticism ruin your guys' groove.

More than anything, I hope they read this thread and decide to let the project take longer before it gets in our hands, in order to be able to build the type of board game that the DS franchise really deserves (not to mention us!). I know some people want the game that they paid for asap, but personally I wish these guys would pull a Poots and let this game simmer for 3 years until it's just perfect, before delivering.
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Exo Desta wrote:
vincentdante wrote:
Well I do hope it's better than mediocre. But you're right about time constraints I fear. I know they mentioned a campaign before but until they tell us what it is we simply have no choice but to speculate in this thread

I would be happy to be wrong -- and please don't let my skepticism ruin your guys' groove.

More than anything, I hope they read this thread and decide to let the project take longer before it gets in our hands, in order to be able to build the type of board game that the DS franchise really deserves (not to mention us!). I know some people want the game that they paid for asap, but personally I wish these guys would pull a Poots and let this game simmer for 3 years until it's just perfect, before delivering.

I think if us backers had to wait 3 years for release..it wouldn't have got off the ground!!...lots of other things to spend money on in 3 years.plus it would be as well in my bank account for that time making interest..than someone elses.
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Some of the strongest stuff I drew from the chat with the (junior) devs was that they 100% wanted it to be that toolkit for players to 'do amazing and cool stuff with'. That gave me comfort that it would be very shape-able and easy to do stuff like slapping together a campaign on.

Little concerned with the latest development on stats, they go up in stages so for example STR has 4 levels, bit simplistic for a campaign that but might be wrong....

 
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Exo Desta wrote:
vincentdante wrote:
Well I do hope it's better than mediocre. But you're right about time constraints I fear. I know they mentioned a campaign before but until they tell us what it is we simply have no choice but to speculate in this thread

I would be happy to be wrong -- and please don't let my skepticism ruin your guys' groove.

More than anything, I hope they read this thread and decide to let the project take longer before it gets in our hands, in order to be able to build the type of board game that the DS franchise really deserves (not to mention us!). I know some people want the game that they paid for asap, but personally I wish these guys would pull a Poots and let this game simmer for 3 years until it's just perfect, before delivering.


I would not back a project that had intentions of taking that long to deliver the goods. That's a shit investment.
 
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broken clock wrote:
I would not back a project that had intentions of taking that long to deliver the goods. That's a shit investment.

No I agree. A bad investment, a badass board game.

I'll take that trade off, but I can see why you wouldn't.
 
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A BGG user talked to the designer at Gen Con and got some useful information which you can read here. The designer openly admits that when they ran the Kickstarter campaign, above all they were looking to see if there was interest in a Dark Souls board game.

So there's the reason that they had very little to present aside from a simple boss fight. They didn't have a game yet. They had some ideas and weren't sure if people would be on board. Therefore, for them to fully develop a game and then add on a campaign like backers want, you know it will be difficult to be more than mediocre unless some kind of genius suddenly happens.

It's also the reason that all the enemies that people mention are all over the place (according to what I've read here, I don't know any of the lore). They didn't have a campaign in mind and went off of what people brought up during the campaign. I'm still baffled by the armour expansions that include an individual mini for each armour. Wouldn't a card with nice artwork that you place on your player mat be just as effective gameplay wise, cheaper production wise, and less fiddly?

I agree that they are doing themselves, the game and the IP (if that matters to you) a disservice by trying to reach their April deadline. Anyway, I'm curious to see if they can expand upon the nice boss fight and random dungeon generation that drew me into the project... at least to pledge $1.

EDIT: sorry, trying to figure out how to link the right post...
EDIT2: I can't seem to figure out how to link the post here, so here's the direct quote:
captainraffi wrote:
Something I found interesting when speaking with David was that they launched the KS partially as a way of gauging interest in both the game and wanting to see what parts of the Dark Souls experience the fans/backers wanted. They knew going in that they were doing it differently than a normal board game.
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Logus Vile wrote:
A BGG user talked to the designer at Gen Con and got some useful information which you can read here. The designer openly admits that when they ran the Kickstarter campaign, above all they were looking to see if there was interest in a Dark Souls board game.

So there's the reason that they had very little to present aside from a simple boss fight. They didn't have a game yet. They had some ideas and weren't sure if people would be on board. Therefore, for them to fully develop a game and then add on a campaign like backers want, you know it will be difficult to be more than mediocre unless some kind of genius suddenly happens.

It's also the reason that all the enemies that people mention are all over the place (according to what I've read here, I don't know any of the lore). They didn't have a campaign in mind and went off of what people brought up during the campaign. I'm still baffled by the armour expansions that include an individual mini for each armour. Wouldn't a card with nice artwork that you place on your player mat be just as effective gameplay wise, cheaper production wise, and less fiddly?

I agree that they are doing themselves, the game and the IP (if that matters to you) a disservice by trying to reach their April deadline. Anyway, I'm curious to see if they can expand upon the nice boss fight and random dungeon generation that drew me into the project... at least to pledge $1.

EDIT: sorry, trying to figure out how to link the right post...
EDIT2: I can't seem to figure out how to link the post here, so here's the direct quote:
captainraffi wrote:
Something I found interesting when speaking with David was that they launched the KS partially as a way of gauging interest in both the game and wanting to see what parts of the Dark Souls experience the fans/backers wanted. They knew going in that they were doing it differently than a normal board game.


Thanks for this, I hope they push the game back now so that they can develope it properly. That doesn't sound good to me at all.

As you could probably tell from my lore thread, I love the video games and I want them to do it some justice in board game form.
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Logus Vile wrote:
A BGG user talked to the designer at Gen Con and got some useful information which you can read here. The designer openly admits that when they ran the Kickstarter campaign, above all they were looking to see if there was interest in a Dark Souls board game.

So there's the reason that they had very little to present aside from a simple boss fight. They didn't have a game yet. They had some ideas and weren't sure if people would be on board. Therefore, for them to fully develop a game and then add on a campaign like backers want, you know it will be difficult to be more than mediocre unless some kind of genius suddenly happens.

It's also the reason that all the enemies that people mention are all over the place (according to what I've read here, I don't know any of the lore). They didn't have a campaign in mind and went off of what people brought up during the campaign. I'm still baffled by the armour expansions that include an individual mini for each armour. Wouldn't a card with nice artwork that you place on your player mat be just as effective gameplay wise, cheaper production wise, and less fiddly?

I agree that they are doing themselves, the game and the IP (if that matters to you) a disservice by trying to reach their April deadline. Anyway, I'm curious to see if they can expand upon the nice boss fight and random dungeon generation that drew me into the project... at least to pledge $1.

EDIT: sorry, trying to figure out how to link the right post...
EDIT2: I can't seem to figure out how to link the post here, so here's the direct quote:
captainraffi wrote:
Something I found interesting when speaking with David was that they launched the KS partially as a way of gauging interest in both the game and wanting to see what parts of the Dark Souls experience the fans/backers wanted. They knew going in that they were doing it differently than a normal board game.


This is discouraging news. And I know a lot of people (including myself) are sceptical about that April release date, but launching a kickstarter based on an IP with such a rabid fanbase to see if there would be much interest in it seems like a foolish and - frankly - not very well thought out plan.

There I go being all cynical again. I'm not exactly sure I'd want a board game that fully captures the video game experience. In fact, I doubt that a straight up dungeon crawler could capture the atmosphere and depth and challenge and torture that the video games offer, but one of the most enjoyable aspects (for me at least) about the video games is the exploration aspect, which the board game (based on the information available) is sorely lacking. The base game is - according to the kickstarter page - only going to come with seven game board tiles. Assuming these are double sided, and that one of them is for the two core set boss fights, that doesn't really leave a whole lot of options for the exploration aspect.

Again, I'd like to point out, I'm not purposefully trying to be a downer, I love the Souls games and I want this board game to be a good representation of that, and if that means the project gets pushed back six, twelve or even eighteen months, then I will (begrudgingly) wait that long.

I'd prefer a delayed, immersive, playable game as opposed to a rushed box of nothing more than cool dark souls mini's...
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The Waspman wrote:


This is discouraging news. And I know a lot of people (including myself) are sceptical about that April release date, but launching a kickstarter based on an IP with such a rabid fanbase to see if there would be much interest in it seems like a foolish and - frankly - not very well thought out plan.

There I go being all cynical again. I'm not exactly sure I'd want a board game that fully captures the video game experience. In fact, I doubt that a straight up dungeon crawler could capture the atmosphere and depth and challenge and torture that the video games offer, but one of the most enjoyable aspects (for me at least) about the video games is the exploration aspect, which the board game (based on the information available) is sorely lacking. The base game is - according to the kickstarter page - only going to come with seven game board tiles. Assuming these are double sided, and that one of them is for the two core set boss fights, that doesn't really leave a whole lot of options for the exploration aspect.

Again, I'd like to point out, I'm not purposefully trying to be a downer, I love the Souls games and I want this board game to be a good representation of that, and if that means the project gets pushed back six, twelve or even eighteen months, then I will (begrudgingly) wait that long.

I'd prefer a delayed, immersive, playable game as opposed to a rushed box of nothing more than cool dark souls mini's...


We'll see what we'll get. But I'm quite sure it will be a good game. It would be okay, if it took longer, as long as we get a great game experience.

Concerning the exploration part: there's a little more content than you expected/mentioned: There will be 7 regular floor tiles plus 2 boss floor tiles, all double sided (I checked the pledge content pictures again) which makes a total of 9. Of course that is not much better, but on the other hand consider the size of the floor tiles. I guess they are something between 20 and 30 cm (appr. 8-12 inches) per side. If you place 7 of them and a boss tile on a table, they will need some space. When I look at my 100x220 cm (appr. 40x88 inches) dining table things could get close to the edges. You'll also need room for cards and the player sheets and so on.
Maybe smaller tiles would be a solution, but they would reduce the possible movement. Maybe there are chances to customize the game a little, when you have the floor tile expansion (dark root basin/iron keep) and some further bosses (which will come with their own rooms).
I would like to see some special parts like stairways or corridors to connect some areas and to give the whole thing more options.
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Frucht wrote:

We'll see what we'll get. But I'm quite sure it will be a good game. It would be okay, if it took longer, as long as we get a great game experience.

Concerning the exploration part: there's a little more content than you expected/mentioned: There will be 7 regular floor tiles plus 2 boss floor tiles, all double sided (I checked the pledge content pictures again) which makes a total of 9. Of course that is not much better, but on the other hand consider the size of the floor tiles. I guess they are something between 20 and 30 cm (appr. 8-12 inches) per side. If you place 7 of them and a boss tile on a table, they will need some space. When I look at my 100x220 cm (appr. 40x88 inches) dining table things could get close to the edges. You'll also need room for cards and the player sheets and so on.
Maybe smaller tiles would be a solution, but they would reduce the possible movement. Maybe there are chances to customize the game a little, when you have the floor tile expansion (dark root basin/iron keep) and some further bosses (which will come with their own rooms).
I would like to see some special parts like stairways or corridors to connect some areas and to give the whole thing more options.


Not good enough damn it! I want to build a three dimensional map that folds over and crosses back around with itself, just like the video games!

In all seriousness, its partly impatience on my part. I didn't back this project until after the campaign had closed, and so I didn't trawl back through all the updates (a lot of which seemed to be just stretch goal notifications) so there are some aspects of the games I'm still in the dark about. I know that recapturing the full experience of the games is going to be impossible on a tabletop, because of how large and interlocking the world of Dark Souls is. To make larger "dungeons" then Steamforged would likely have to institute a more modular Space Hulk/Descent style board system, but that wouldn't be compatible with the node format of moving/fighting.

I guess all any of us can do is wait and see how it looks...
 
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Frucht wrote:


We'll see what we'll get. But I'm quite sure it will be a good game. It would be okay, if it took longer, as long as we get a great game experience.

Concerning the exploration part: there's a little more content than you expected/mentioned: There will be 7 regular floor tiles plus 2 boss floor tiles, all double sided (I checked the pledge content pictures again) which makes a total of 9. Of course that is not much better, but on the other hand consider the size of the floor tiles. I guess they are something between 20 and 30 cm (appr. 8-12 inches) per side. If you place 7 of them and a boss tile on a table, they will need some space. When I look at my 100x220 cm (appr. 40x88 inches) dining table things could get close to the edges. You'll also need room for cards and the player sheets and so on.
Maybe smaller tiles would be a solution, but they would reduce the possible movement. Maybe there are chances to customize the game a little, when you have the floor tile expansion (dark root basin/iron keep) and some further bosses (which will come with their own rooms).
I would like to see some special parts like stairways or corridors to connect some areas and to give the whole thing more options.


I'm hoping that the variety and type of tiles increases pretty fast. Darkroot adds a fair few more and I think they'll be quick to add things like corridors and odd shaped tile packs. I take some comfort in the fact that each tile is like a mini-board as is and some have quite a lot of walls, corridors and 'stuff' in apparently.

I also think there will be stuff like breakable pillars and we already know there are terrain types on some of the encounter cards (water, poison etc).

Why isn't it November 2017 yet? (note I didn't say April there...)
 
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