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Glorantha: The Gods War» Forums » General

Subject: Available at retail? rss

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K S
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I understand that this game is a successor to Cthulhu Wars, which was also kickstarted and was available at retail, but which now appears to be sold out at the online retailers I've checked. Will this game also be available at retail and, if so, is it also likely to sell out quickly? Basically, will I have to Kickstart this game if I ever want a copy?
 
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Guillaume Andriot
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Retail availability will be very limited and even less likely for the expansions. Your best bet it to go trought the KS wich will probably be the cheaper option too.
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Sol Kanar
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completely agree with Guillaume !!
Perhaps you will find the core game, but no chance to see the other 3 boxes (or only in 4-5 years)
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Lincoln Petersen
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Most likely what you'll be paying for in Shipping on the KS is in contrast to the year or two wait you would have to go through if you bought it in a store.
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Sandy Petersen
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I am making no guarantees that any part of Gods War will ever be available at retail. I have hope and expectation that at least the core game will be around.
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Cody
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These responses seem pretty disingenuine. I get that you guys cant guarantee retail availability, but you also know exactly how many retail level pledges you took. You were offering it at half price to retailers so I suspect you're looking at decent marginal returns on each sale to private backers. Given your relationships with your vendors I suspect youve got a pretty good idea what your costs per unit are going to be. If you wanted to make it available you certainly could. I dont know why you dont use a distributor. I suspect your profit margins on each unit are high enough at this point that theres no need to until A) youve gotten as much as you can out of the customer pool willing to pony up $400 plus on each kickstarter campaign B) have a larger catalogue of releases to offer. Once the molds are tooled up, art work and layouts finalized, I dont understand what the big deal is with ordering up additional print runs unless it has something to do with licensing for the intellectual property. I get the advantages Kickstarter has: getting the money up front, the way it cuts out the middlemen, and the FOMO pressure it puts on backers to shell out big bucks for everything at once. Youve opted for a low risk/conservative approach, I get it. But lets not pretend you dont have the capability to make the games more widely and consistently available.
 
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The Game Steward
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I'll leave it to Petersen Games to respond as they feel the need, but in my experience, The Gods War is not a game that is likely to be picked up by many (if any) distributors. It's a bit too expensive for an IP that is not widely known by the general public (unlike Cthulhu, or better yet, Star Wars). My guess is that not enough brick and mortar stores will be willing to take a risk on it for a distributor to justify buying large quantities.

Having said that, we (The Game Steward) will carry The Gods War, along with all of the available expansions. As an online store specializing in Kickstarter campaigns, The Gods War is a natural fit for us.
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Cody
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If you're willing to sell me one at 25% below the individual kickstarter price then Im sold.

Edit: I ran across thegamesteward a few weeks ago and I think its a great business/service.
 
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Graham Robinson
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AHShole wrote:
I dont understand what the big deal is with ordering up additional print runs


Cash flow.

Generally, the cost per unit goes down as the "print" size goes up. After all, set up/tear down is a cost for the factory, so they charge for that time and effort. In practice that means there's a minimum print run that's worth bothering with. So you pay for that minimum run.

You then ship it. Again, the cost of shipping a few boxes is more per unit than a pallet which is more per unit than a full container. You pay for that.

You then need warehousing (charging by the day) and fulfillment (charging by the unit, though again, cost per unit can be lower if you do a big shipment in one go). PG are unlikely to be big enough to have their own warehouse, so they'll be paying someone else to do this.

Then you send it to distributors. Here, I don't know what the industry standard is. In some industries, you'll get paid 30 days later. In others, you'll get paid six months later if the distributor sells the items on, or the items back if they haven't.

Add on the time taken to manufacturer, ship, dispatch, and you're paying out money 6-12 months before you get any return. How much of that print run is going into distribution straight away? If a lot of it sits in warehouses initially, add more time to that figure.

So, yeah, it is a big deal. Especially for a small company. Even big games companies have problems with this (cf. Star Wars Rebellion going (temporarily) out of print).

Cheers,
Graham
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Cody
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Ordering up an additional print run of 1000 copies for $60,000 doesnt seem like that big of a deal for a company doing multimillion a year in sales.
 
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Adam Starks
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You are seriously misinformed if you think that's the situation at PG. Sure they've raised a few million on Kickstarter, but they've spent pretty much all of it on producing and shipping out the games. Onslaught 2 was mostly about them getting enough money to re-print the expansion stuff. It was even announced a little over a year ago that Sandy had mortgaged his house to help pay for things.

If they were in a position where $60k was not 'that big of a deal', they'd probably be off of Kickstarter and funding their own new projects.
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AdamStarks wrote:
You are seriously misinformed if you think that's the situation at PG. Sure they've raised a few million on Kickstarter, but they've spent pretty much all of it on producing and shipping out the games. Onslaught 2 was mostly about them getting enough money to re-print the expansion stuff. It was even announced a little over a year ago that Sandy had mortgaged his house to help pay for things.

If they were in a position where $60k was not 'that big of a deal', they'd probably be off of Kickstarter and funding their own new projects.


When you say im seriously misinformed are you basing that on actual knowledge? If so im honestly interested.

I just dont get why you cant keep things like Cthulhu Wars base game in supply when there is clear demand. Yes Glorantha is a lesser known IP, so I suspect they are hedging their exposure by inflicting the startup costs on the early adopters. I fully expect the game to be available through retailers at less than their individual backer price for a short time. What irked me is the coy response to the initial post. I believe they withhold supply to maximize profits from fans/early adopters which really isnt the spirit of Kickstarter, nor is it a very cool to do when dealing with an esoteric subculture. (Yes im protective of wargaming and its adherrents. I also view Sandy Petersen as THEE most important ambassador and modern inovator of the Cthulhu Mythos)

I suspect their plan is to offer the games for significantly less in the future and to a broader audience once theyve gouged the fans for what they could in the early days. Is that wrong? Maybe not, the market bears what it bears, but dont go fibbing about it.

 
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Adam Starks
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I am basing that on actual knowledge, insofar as I've met Sandy, Arthur, and others at Petersen Games on a couple different occasions, and had private conversations with them about various things. Stuff like the mortgage has been publicly stated, but there are other things I know which (to my knowledge) have not. Unless they've concocted some elaborate web of lies, which includes synchronized lying to their many house guests surprise

With all the confidence one can muster short of being directly involved in the operations of Petersen Games, Sandy and Pals are on the up-and-up about all this.

More broadly, the vast majority of creative developers (in video games, board games, etc) are also on the up-and-up, and are motivated by a desire to produce good work, for that work to reach as many people as possible, and to pay their bills (generally in that order). Whenever you notice one of them making some kind of perceived mistake, it's usually because either the situation is more complicated than you realize (which I believe is going on with your concern), somebody who's higher up is differently motivated (such as a publisher putting out a buggy game to hit a release window), or the developer is simply making a mistake (many aren't primarily motivated by money, and are therefore kinda crappy business people).
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Graham Robinson
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AHShole wrote:
I suspect their plan is to offer the games for significantly less in the future and to a broader audience once theyve gouged the fans for what they could in the early days.


Wow. And you base this on what, exactly?

No one is offering comparable miniatures at "significantly less" than the prices available via the Petersen Kickstarters. For instance, Reaper Bones is $2-$3 for a man size figure, and prices go up from there, and they aren't pre-assembled. Blood Rage is $80 for 42 man size figures and 4 larger (but not GOO size) ones. Games Workshop typically wants over $100 for less than that. Cthulhu Wars at $150 for 72 figures, many of them large, and several of them huge is good value compared to the market.

The only place you'd find anything cheaper is end of line clearance, and that's done to clear warehouse space, not make money.

In short, there's no margin to offer these games for "significantly less". Not and stay in business.

Cheers,
Graham
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Lincoln Petersen
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It's true the MSRP on Cthulhu Wars might go down by like $15 or so in the future. Nothing like what you would imagine though with other games.

Also I wish we could get 1k copies for $60k.
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Cody
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linkthestink wrote:
It's true the MSRP on Cthulhu Wars might go down by like $15 or so in the future. Nothing like what you would imagine though with other games.

Also I wish we could get 1k copies for $60k.


Thanks for the response Lincoln and considering my concerns!
 
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therealbuserian wrote:


Wow. And you base this on what, exactly?

No one is offering comparable miniatures at "significantly less" than the prices available via the Petersen Kickstarters. For instance, Reaper Bones is $2-$3 for a man size figure, and prices go up from there, and they aren't pre-assembled. Blood Rage is $80 for 42 man size figures and 4 larger (but not GOO size) ones. Games Workshop typically wants over $100 for less than that. Cthulhu Wars at $150 for 72 figures, many of them large, and several of them huge is good value compared to the market.

The only place you'd find anything cheaper is end of line clearance, and that's done to clear warehouse space, not make money.

In short, there's no margin to offer these games for "significantly less". Not and stay in business.

Cheers,
Graham


A) Blood Rage is available for $55 USD on Amazon with FREE shipping. Cthulhu Wars is available from PG for $199 PLUS shipping which is a clear ripoff.

B) Games Workshops pricing is widely resented even among adherents. I havent played their miniatures games in 10 years because of it. Im content to buy their licensed products which are far cheaper. Also, they are a public traded company in England as opposed to an LP in Texas which carries a whole 'nother set of costs. Even then, GW keep their products available through retail at stable prices which PG doesnt.

C) For Gods War, PG was offering orders to retailers at half price as opposed to individual backers. Which indicates to me they are milking fans to cover their initial investment (and possibly violating Kickstarters rules).

D) As a consumer Im intetested in lower prices and greater availability. Im not sure what your stake is.

I dont get the impression you have any better insight into the margins than I do. There are a variety of accounting techniques to asses marginal costs. Im less interested in the calculation than the reality of who is shouldering the upfront expenses: the company or the early adpoters/hardcore fans. The company can continue to increase its profit margins pet unit but the initial backers dont get any return on the premium price they pay (except to get the gamer sooner, which is offset by the fact they provided the seed money for the project to exist at all).
 
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Adam Starks
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A) Blood Rage is a smaller game with fewer and smaller figures, made by a larger company that is able to better utilize an economy of scale, and has access to a wider segment of the market, which gives them the option of making less per unit in return for greater sales volume. It's not a very straightforward comparison.

B) As for Games Workshop, it wasn't that long ago that you couldn't find any retail copies for Space Hulk (3rd addition sold out within something like a couple months), and even then, the retail price was around $120, with less material than the base Cthulhu Wars. Again, very different companies and products.

C) That's certainly a possibility, but my bet is that it's more about trying to increase market visibility and build relationships with retailers. Also keep in mind that (from my understanding) each pledge only got 1 set of extras (translucent Orlanth, Arachna Solara, and Battle Dice), so they are getting proportionately less material (though still for a great price). However, if I ever see Sandy sitting on a golden throne, drinking from a gem-encrusted goblet, blowing his nose with money, I'll eat my shoes on the spot.

D) Those are very valid concerns, and while they certainly apply to me, time and space are my more limiting factors, meaning I'd rather get one amazing product than several more hum-drum games. Quality of life for the creator is also high on the list, since I've seen how expensive and complicated these projects are to pull off, and the physical and emotional damage that oftentimes are the result of trying to meet the expectations of your fans, family, friends, and investors.
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Graham Robinson
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AHShole wrote:
the initial backers dont get any return on the premium price they pay


Using some reasonable costs for the stuff that isn't available any more ($100 for the collector figures, KS add on price for everything else) I get the DVM being discounted 39% off MSRP. The cheapest I've ever seen the core game for is 42% off. Expansions not that much.

Yeah, that's some premium we're paying. I feel totally ripped off. whistle

Cheers,
Graham
 
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AHShole wrote:

C) For Gods War, PG was offering orders to retailers at half price as opposed to individual backers. Which indicates to me they are milking fans to cover their initial investment (and possibly violating Kickstarters rules).


I'm always surprised when I see this complaint come up, specific to Kickstarter. This is just the traditional retail distribution model with the curtain pulled slightly back. Every game you buy at a game store? It was sold by the publisher at 50-60% off to a retailer or distributor. When the publisher sells the game on their website to customers for full MSRP? Yeah, that is about double the wholesale cost of the game. Every publisher does this. You name the publisher that sells a game on their website for full MSRP, and you will be naming a company that sells that game at half cost at wholesale to retailers and distributors. There is nothing unique about Kickstarter games being offered to retailers at wholesale prices, and that is all that Petersen Games is doing.

I don't think it's necessary to explain how the traditional retail distribution model works, or why it was built this way. Suffice to say that Petersen Games is conforming to business standards in the hobby game market. No more and no less.

As for the accusation that they are "milking" fans to cover their initial investment, I am honestly dumbfounded. That is the sole and entire purpose of Kickstarter and crowdfunding. Project creators launch a campaign to raise money to cover the initial investment to bring their project to life. Is there some other reason for crowdfunding that was never disclosed to the public?
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Graham Robinson
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
business standards in the hobby game market.


Possibly worth mentioning that this standard is pretty much the standard for all of retail. You get the odd low margin seller (food in the UK is sometimes on this basis), but they're notable for being odd.

Cheers,
Graham
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
[q="AHShole"]

I'm always surprised when I see this complaint come up, specific to Kickstarter. This is just the traditional retail distribution model with the curtain pulled slightly back. Every game you buy at a game store? It was sold by the publisher at 50-60% off to a retailer or distributor. When the publisher sells the game on their website to customers for full MSRP? Yeah, that is about double the wholesale cost of the game. Every publisher does this. You name the publisher that sells a game on their website for full MSRP, and you will be naming a company that sells that game at half cost at wholesale to retailers and distributors. There is nothing unique about Kickstarter games being offered to retailers at wholesale prices, and that is all that Petersen Games is doing.

I don't think it's necessary to explain how the traditional retail distribution model works, or why it was built this way. Suffice to say that Petersen Games is conforming to business standards in the hobby game market. No more and no less.

As for the accusation that they are "milking" fans to cover their initial investment, I am honestly dumbfounded. That is the sole and entire purpose of Kickstarter and crowdfunding. Project creators launch a campaign to raise money to cover the initial investment to bring their project to life. Is there some other reason for crowdfunding that was never disclosed to the public?


Id like to be able to buy the game at half price too. Heck, id be happy to split it with someone if it requires a two set order.

Last week a number of Onslaught 2 Cthulhu Wars backers went ape when an online retailer posted pre-order prices significantly below what the individual backers were charged. The site was then contacted by PG and the prices were taken down, it was chalked up to a "miscommunication."



 
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therealbuserian wrote:
GreenLaborMike wrote:
business standards in the hobby game market.


Possibly worth mentioning that this standard is pretty much the standard for all of retail. You get the odd low margin seller (food in the UK is sometimes on this basis), but they're notable for being odd.

Cheers,
Graham


Ok. Are you happy to pay top price for everything you buy? Its your choice. Personally Id rather not.
 
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AHShole wrote:
GreenLaborMike wrote:
[q="AHShole"]

I'm always surprised when I see this complaint come up, specific to Kickstarter. This is just the traditional retail distribution model with the curtain pulled slightly back. Every game you buy at a game store? It was sold by the publisher at 50-60% off to a retailer or distributor. When the publisher sells the game on their website to customers for full MSRP? Yeah, that is about double the wholesale cost of the game. Every publisher does this. You name the publisher that sells a game on their website for full MSRP, and you will be naming a company that sells that game at half cost at wholesale to retailers and distributors. There is nothing unique about Kickstarter games being offered to retailers at wholesale prices, and that is all that Petersen Games is doing.

I don't think it's necessary to explain how the traditional retail distribution model works, or why it was built this way. Suffice to say that Petersen Games is conforming to business standards in the hobby game market. No more and no less.

As for the accusation that they are "milking" fans to cover their initial investment, I am honestly dumbfounded. That is the sole and entire purpose of Kickstarter and crowdfunding. Project creators launch a campaign to raise money to cover the initial investment to bring their project to life. Is there some other reason for crowdfunding that was never disclosed to the public?


Id like to be able to buy the game at half price too. Heck, id be happy to split it with someone if it requires a two set order.

Last week a number of Onslaught 2 Cthulhu Wars backers went ape when an online retailer posted pre-order prices significantly below what the individual backers were charged. The site was then contacted by PG and the prices were taken down, it was chalked up to a "miscommunication."





But you could say that about literally anything you buy from a store. Food, appliances, clothes, and yes...games. I don't think your beef is with Petersen Games. It's with the standard retail model for pretty much every consumer item in the world that is sold in a store.

AHShole wrote:
Ok. Are you happy to pay top price for everything you buy? Its your choice. Personally Id rather not.


Nothing about this model requires that you pay top dollar. This is the whole reason that online stores exist - they sell at lower prices that are only possible with economies of scale that brick & mortar stores can't match. If you don't like the prices of a particular game at your local game store, then you can buy it online. And if you don't like the prices that Petersen Games is charging on Kickstarter, then you can wait to buy it from an online game store. And if the game doesn't sell well, then maybe you'll be able to pick it up in a clearance sale for 75% off. All of this is perfectly consistent with the standard retail distribution model.

It really seems like your concern is about how the retail market works as a whole, not with Petersen Games in particular.
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Russell Malo
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
AHShole wrote:
[q="GreenLaborMike"][q="AHShole"]

I'm always surprised when I see this complaint come up, specific to Kickstarter. This is just the traditional retail distribution model with the curtain pulled slightly back. Every game you buy at a game store? It was sold by the publisher at 50-60% off to a retailer or distributor. When the publisher sells the game on their website to customers for full MSRP? Yeah, that is about double the wholesale cost of the game. Every publisher does this. You name the publisher that sells a game on their website for full MSRP, and you will be naming a company that sells that game at half cost at wholesale to retailers and distributors. There is nothing unique about Kickstarter games being offered to retailers at wholesale prices, and that is all that Petersen Games is doing.

I don't think it's necessary to explain how the traditional retail distribution model works, or why it was built this way. Suffice to say that Petersen Games is conforming to business standards in the hobby game market. No more and no less.

As for the accusation that they are "milking" fans to cover their initial investment, I am honestly dumbfounded. That is the sole and entire purpose of Kickstarter and crowdfunding. Project creators launch a campaign to raise money to cover the initial investment to bring their project to life. Is there some other reason for crowdfunding that was never disclosed to the public?


Id like to be able to buy the game at half price too. Heck, id be happy to split it with someone if it requires a two set order.

Last week a number of Onslaught 2 Cthulhu Wars backers went ape when an online retailer posted pre-order prices significantly below what the individual backers were charged. The site was then contacted by PG and the prices were taken down, it was chalked up to a "miscommunication."





But you could say that about literally anything you buy from a store. Food, appliances, clothes, and yes...games. I don't think your beef is with Petersen Games. It's with the standard retail model for pretty much every consumer item in the world that is sold in a store.

This!

This is how everything works at a retail level. Even big purchases like a car. You will NEVER get a brand new car from a manufacturer at the same price a dealer will. You're talking about something in the range of %25 of sticker price.

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