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7 Wonders» Forums » Variants

Subject: Losing coins on city cards rss

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Joshua Watkins
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My normal 7 Wonders game group has played with the Cities expansion now a few times, but nobody likes the black cards that make you lose coins. It's gotten to the point where they would rather play just the base game + leaders rather than incorporate the city cards.

My question is how reasonable would it be to play a variant of those cards where the player gets coins, but the others do not lose any. So the 5 point 3 debt card would instead give the player 5 points and 3 coins, instead of causing people to lose coins. This variant would obviously make the debt tokens useless, and add some inflation to the game. But other than that, do you think this would work?

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Antanas
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This would make these cards much weaker. The more players you play with, the more you'd weaken these cards. Seems like your gaming group doesn't like direct interaction which is a shame.
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Conan Meriadoc
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When you play this card, your opponents always have a choice to refuse spending coins and take debt tokens instead. If your opponents ALL refuse to spend coins (or can't), they all lose 3 victory points - which is strictly equivalent to you gaining 3 VP. Therefore, it wouldn't be too unbalanced to consider this card as a VP source only, worth 8 VP.

Now, let's change the card text a bit :
"Worth 8 VP. Your opponents may all decide to spend up to 3 coins to gain as many victory points."

The results are strictly the same as the original card, but with a positive take. No one's losing anything and everyone's getting an opportunity to gain points !

If your gaming group frowns on negative player interaction but welcomes positive player interaction (I know some groups do), this might solve the issue entirely. If they realize they are getting tricked... Well, maybe they'll reconsider their irrational behavior

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Tom Ginn
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Our group loves the direct interaction that these city cards allow. We often play games of 6 or 7 players and we're often talking about how we never get to sit beside so-and-so or engage with the player across the table. Some of our favourite cards are the ones that force debt on everyone at the table and the diplomacy markers which force two opponents to face each other when they normally wouldn't.

If you eliminate those cards, you are effectively eliminating any chance to engage with players other than your neighbours. If that's how you prefer it...do it. Whatever is the most fun for your group will always be the right answer. But just don't discount the fun to be had from exploiting those rare opportunities to make EVERYONE pay.
 
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Dystopian wrote:
When you play this card, your opponents always have a choice to refuse spending coins and take debt tokens instead. If your opponents ALL refuse to spend coins (or can't), they all lose 3 victory points - which is strictly equivalent to you gaining 3 VP. Therefore, it wouldn't be too unbalanced to consider this card as a VP source only, worth 8 VP.

Now, let's change the card text a bit :
"Worth 8 VP. Your opponents may all decide to spend up to 3 coins to gain as many victory points."

The results are strictly the same as the original card, but with a positive take. No one's losing anything and everyone's getting an opportunity to gain points !

If your gaming group frowns on negative player interaction but welcomes positive player interaction (I know some groups do), this might solve the issue entirely. If they realize they are getting tricked... Well, maybe they'll reconsider their irrational behavior

Another thing is red/military cards sort of do the same difference anyways. Players are getting hit with effects, and your engine hit comes from having to build those cards in the first place instead of anything else.
 
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Antanas
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Dystopian wrote:
When you play this card, your opponents always have a choice to refuse spending coins and take debt tokens instead. If your opponents ALL refuse to spend coins (or can't), they all lose 3 victory points - which is strictly equivalent to you gaining 3 VP. Therefore, it wouldn't be too unbalanced to consider this card as a VP source only, worth 8 VP.

Now, let's change the card text a bit :
"Worth 8 VP. Your opponents may all decide to spend up to 3 coins to gain as many victory points."

The results are strictly the same as the original card, but with a positive take. No one's losing anything and everyone's getting an opportunity to gain points !

If your gaming group frowns on negative player interaction but welcomes positive player interaction (I know some groups do), this might solve the issue entirely. If they realize they are getting tricked... Well, maybe they'll reconsider their irrational behavior



Your logic is only correct for 2 player games. In multi player games I'd usually choose 5 points for me and -3 for everyone else rather than simply 8 points for me.
 
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Conan Meriadoc
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lebryant wrote:
Your logic is only correct for 2 player games. In multi player games I'd usually choose 5 points for me and -3 for everyone else rather than simply 8 points for me.

As long as there's a "everyone else loses 3 VP" rather than a targeted "one player loses 3 VP", it's equivalent for all purposes, even in a multiplayer game.
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Antanas
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Dystopian wrote:
lebryant wrote:
Your logic is only correct for 2 player games. In multi player games I'd usually choose 5 points for me and -3 for everyone else rather than simply 8 points for me.

As long as there's a "everyone else loses 3 VP" rather than a targeted "one player loses 3 VP", it's equivalent for all purposes, even in a multiplayer game.

Yep, you're obviously right. I don't know where my mind had gone when I read it first
 
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Wait, even with your coin variant, how does it work with Military debt and wonder debt? It's nearly impossible to tax people the same amount on those. Those are the ones that can really hurt, and those could whiff too.

Also Counterfeiter's Guild would be a terrible card if it's only 5 VP and 3 coins with a triple Ore cost.

How many people do you usually play with as a group? It's usually when you play with 5+ people when the tax gets pretty aggravating, simply because 5+ city cards are passed around. On 3-4 players there's usually a surplus of coins.


I'm also curious if you play with Leaders or not. If you are, perhaps there's too much tendency to draft 3 leaders.

If you're playing with just the base, I could see a lack of coins, but by then you just take -VP.

I mean are the coins that critical? If you seriously needed to trade or pay the bank for Bilkis or City cards, taking -VP guarantees you the same coin amount. If it's for points, bleed the coins. If you have Midas and/or Gamers Guild, take one or two debt tokens since the coins can net you more points.


Ultimately I think most people have the habit of "paying in the coins" instead of thinking about taking debt tokens. Same thing with trying to draft 3 leaders. It tends to burn coins really fast. (Same applies with excitement of going for the city cards that cost coins)

Even with the 5 VP -3 coin guild, it's "6 VP, up to 8 VP" so the difference is roughly 3 coins for 2 VP. In other words, even if you take the full hit of debt tokens, the net VP loss at worst is 2 VP.
 
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Joshua Watkins
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I'm not sure what you mean by military debt/wonder debt, maybe I'm getting a rule wrong or something as it has been a while since looking at the cards.

Usually we play with 4 or 5 people and leaders. As I've only played with cities now a couple of times, I cant remember how much of a surplus of coins there were. I'm sure though that the problem isn't the lack of coins, but the "take that" nature of the City cards that lose money. Even when someone is playing aggressively in 7 wonders, we don't reveal the cards we bury/sell, which ultimately makes it feel passive (whether it is or not).
 
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Ah that makes sense, disliking the "take that" aspect.


I was referring to these cards:
Sepulchre (tax per military placard) age II
Cenotaph (tax per military placard) age III
Builder's Union (Tax per wonder) age III

These vary based on each player's production. I guess you may have just averaged them or fix the number (taxing in age 2 instead gains you two coins) but then it changes if you use Halikarnassus in another age.

Another variant I guess is gain the amount of coins you would have taxed in coins, but that would be too strong if you have more players.

Interesting point about not revealing what you bury or discard since you normally don't do that anyways.


Cities is fun but literally half the cards apply a "take that" effect haha. People really don't like losing coins or getting debt tokens I suppose.
 
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Amoirsp wrote:
Ah that makes sense, disliking the "take that" aspect.


I was referring to these cards:
Sepulchre (tax per military placard) age II
Cenotaph (tax per military placard) age III
Builder's Union (Tax per wonder) age III

These vary based on each player's production. I guess you may have just averaged them or fix the number (taxing in age 2 instead gains you two coins) but then it changes if you use Halikarnassus in another age.

Another variant I guess is gain the amount of coins you would have taxed in coins, but that would be too strong if you have more players.

Interesting point about not revealing what you bury or discard since you normally don't do that anyways.


Cities is fun but literally half the cards apply a "take that" effect haha. People really don't like losing coins or getting debt tokens I suppose.
Curious, do the diplomacy tokens not have the same effect? All the build up in red cards, and now, you're getting less points than before.

Some wonders with strong powers probably could stand to take a bit of "punishment" from getting done too early.
 
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