Melody Marion
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I have seen a few threads about how different players handle permadeath. I Would like to play with permadeath as written in the rule book. However, I'm wondering if the rules allow my new character to replay scenarios to "level up" until he's able to rejoin the party.

If that's possible, is there anything preventing me from only re-playing the scenarios that award feats? I understand that the Adventure feat would require me to complete all scenarios in the adventure. But, some individual scenarios reward feats. Could I just replay those to get some feats on the new character?

Curious if this is allowed under the rulebook or if the new character is required to start at the same scenario where he/she died.

 
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Christopher Evans
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automatik16 wrote:
I have seen a few threads about how different players handle permadeath. I Would like to play with permadeath as written in the rule book. However, I'm wondering if the rules allow my new character to replay scenarios to "level up" until he's able to rejoin the party.

If that's possible, is there anything preventing me from only re-playing the scenarios that award feats? I understand that the Adventure feat would require me to complete all scenarios in the adventure. But, some individual scenarios reward feats. Could I just replay those to get some feats on the new character?

Curious if this is allowed under the rulebook or if the new character is required to start at the same scenario where he/she died.



To the best of my knowledge any character can replay scenarios but can only gain the associated feat/reward but once. However farming certain scenarios for the loot is not uncommon. As for a new character brought in due to a death this is the only way to bring them on level with the rest of the surviving original party. If I can find official support for these conclusions I will update this post with applicable references.

FAQ Entry on "Replaying Scenarios"...

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gk#v5748eaic9r4h

EDITED TO ADD LINK
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C Sandifer
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automatik16 wrote:
I have seen a few threads about how different players handle permadeath. I Would like to play with permadeath as written in the rule book.


For what it's worth, we didn't have any character deaths in Rise of the Runelords or Skull & Shackles. (Lucky? Maybe.) In Wrath of the Righteous, we had characters close to death a few times, but we only had one "real" death late in the campaign - and even then the death was prevented because we had a revival spell handy.

Keep in mind that (in most scenarios) you can stop exploring at any time to voluntarily end the session, which is usually enough to keep severely damaged characters from traveling the Great Path in the Sky.*


*Unless locations are dealing out random damage every turn - or something similar - the Blessings Deck will eventually run itself out with no ill effects. So once all characters stop exploring the game is essentially over. Usually.
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Melody Marion
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I didn't realize we could rest/stop exploring. I'm definitely going to implement that tactic.

Kyra died after rolling a 13 out of 50 possible points (3D12 + 2, 2D6) against Erylium on Trouble in Sandpoint. Yes, that included a 1, 1, and 2 on three rolls of the D12. I took 2 damage and died. So, I'd call that a freak accident and not one I probably could have avoided.

My specific question is if I can JUST play the scenarios that award feats and NOT all of the scenarios. For example, Attack on Sandpoint, the first scenario in Burnt Offerings, awards a skill feat. And, Trouble in Sandpoint, the third scenario in Burnt Offerings, awards a power feat.

Could I just play those 2 with my new character without playing the Perils of the Lost Coast prologue? Then join the party where I left off?

Do the rules explicitly allow or disallow such an approach? This would let me level up without having to grind out ALL the previous scenarios.
 
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Andrew Warner
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You don't get any of the adventure rewards unless you complete all the scenarios in the adventure.

The rules really expect you to just start a new character and continue on. So, replaying old scenarios to "level up" isn't really something you are going to see addressed in the rules.

If you are going to go to all that trouble, I say just give your new character the same number of feats as your other characters, build a deck according to rules and continue on.
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Jeff Jones
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Agree with Hawkmoon, it's easiest to just give the new character the same number of feats. But if you think that's too easy, then go ahead and replay just the scenarios that give out feats and just say that you did the others so that you can get the adventure feat rewards.
 
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Drew
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I never really understood the approach of grinding or replaying old scenarios to get better loot or level up another character, especially if your approach is simply to take a knee and run down the blessing timer. If there is no risk and you are willing to keep redoing until you get the reward you want, you might as well save yourself the time and just take it. If you are leveling up a character, you are not going to be happy if they die along the road trying to reach the same point the rest of the party is waiting.

I think it is reasonable to just pick a new character and give them same number of feats as the rest of the party. Let the character pick the appropriate level of gear and get back to the adventure.

If you feel the need to punish yourself then don't allow anyone to take the dead character's loot. After the new character is built and equipped then return the dead character's loot to the box or remove it from the game completely.


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Neil Edmonds
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You could just implement the Adventure Deck Number - 2 for card selection in lieu of grinding scenarios. The rules as written already allow this. Take an extra "gimp" character in the party (note this adds an extra player for locations.) Said gimp always discards their hand each turn until they die. Since replacement characters get Adventure Deck - 2 cards to start and there are no failures for losing scenarios, other players can select that players cards when rebuilding their decks. Do this at the start of each Adventure Deck and you've got the same result as picking cards you want for every character in the party.

[edit]

Here's the pros and cons

Rules as written
- Character builds are suboptimal since players have to rely on what they find. This makes the game more challenging and could result in additional replays of scenarios since players are more likely lose.
- Banishment of cards hurts a lot more since you have to find them again while playing scenarios.
- Maintains some mystery / excitement about available boons which helps the game's replay value.
- The designers have said replaying scenarios to grind for cards makes the game easier, so this seems to be the intended design.
- I know this is an abstraction of an RPG, but it seems a little odd the heroes can never pick different cards from the box - even basic ones - once they start adventuring. Where does the treasure go? Are they adventuring solely to pay-off Golarion's debt collectors?
- As I've pointed out, you could make the party size larger and take advantage of the death rules to loot the corpse and build up your decks. Remember this game is an abstraction, so alignment doesn't apply either.
- It seems silly that characters who worship a dedicated deity have to find blessings via random draw, but again, the game is an abstraction.

Pick your cards at Deck Number - 2
- Makes the game easier, which cuts down on the number of repeated scenarios because of failure. Note that this also impacts remove from the game effects for basic and elite cards too, since they'll happen less often.
- Diabloesque grinding to "play by the rules" can be an issue for groups that want to play different games on a regular basis.
- Does a great job teaching players the strengths and interactions of their characters. It's really tough to appreciate the role card blessing abilities if you don't have any relevant blessings!
- The system can be tweaked to taste. Maybe characters only get to select their starting boon types from the box between adventures (Seoni needs spells in her starting hand, Merisiel needs an item) and they have to find the rest of their cards by adventuring. Or maybe you can select all boon types except Blessings which are pretty powerful.
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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I would go with the RPG solution: "Roll up" a new character that's close to or at the level as the rest of the party. In PACG, that would mean awarding the new character all of the feats from the adventures the party has completed, and then build their deck using the cards available to the party as a whole. You won't have to worry about an underpowered character dragging the whole group down, but they also won't have access to non-basic cards until they start adventuring.
 
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Melody Marion
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Thanks for the helpful replies!

It sounds like everyone is recommending that we award the new character all the same feats as the dead character. However, I believe the Rulebook states that the new character starts with no feats.

Page 14 of the Rulebook says:

If your character dies, start a new character for the next scenario.
Choose a character card (it can be the same character who just died,
though you do not get any of the feats that character previously
earned).

There is also a Paizo blog on permadeath here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5liw0?Death-is-Always-in...

It says:

Harsk and Kyra didn't actually ever finish Burnt Offerings, and so they missed out on the adventure's feats. They turned out a little less buff because their predecessors offed it.

So, according to the official rules, it sounds like new characters start without the feats. Do most people houserule permadeath and award feats?

I want to play according to the rules but it does seem broken to throw a level 0 character with no feats into an advanced scenario. It also prevents that character from ever maxing out their abilities.

I get that the penalty should be harsh, but it seems odd to restrict the character from ever reaching their full potential.
 
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automatik16 wrote:
I want to play according to the rules but it does seem broken to throw a level 0 character with no feats into an advanced scenario. It also prevents that character from ever maxing out their abilities.


Eh, try it. What I've noticed is that the cards in your deck are as, or more important, than the feats and powers on your character. While an increased hand size is important, a +1 won't make *that* much of a difference. Also, the more powerful characters will also be collecting good cards, and can give them away to the less powerful characters.

In the end, though, you *don't* have to play according to the rules. Mike and the PACG police aren't going to bust down your door and take away your cards.
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Jeff Jones
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If I had to rank the feats in terms of importance to your character, I would say that the power feats are definitely the most important, followed by skill feats. You can get by without having as many cards as the other characters but some of those power feats are just critical for taking on later monsters and barriers.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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automatik16 wrote:
So, according to the official rules, it sounds like new characters start without the feats. Do most people houserule permadeath and award feats?

I want to play according to the rules but it does seem broken to throw a level 0 character with no feats into an advanced scenario. It also prevents that character from ever maxing out their abilities.

I get that the penalty should be harsh, but it seems odd to restrict the character from ever reaching their full potential.


We house ruled it that way, yes. When we had one the new character started with the same feats, but a basic deck (so there was still some penalty involved). We understood the rule and the reasoning, but we found no idea of fun in the process of re-leveling one character or in having one of us so much more gimped than the others that the house rule allowed us to continue play happily. The loss of the loot and of a favorite character was enough penalty for us.
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