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Subject: On Calvinism rss

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Greg
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This is another perspective on Christianity that you may not be aware of. Be forewarned that you might not like it.

Quote:
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Contrasted with:
Quote:
(John 6:64a-65) But there are some of you who do not believe... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

Whosoever believes but it also must be granted by the Father before one is able?

Quote:
(Romans 9:13-23) As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?

Welcome to the sovereignty of God, Ruler and Creator of the universe. He calls the shots around here, whether we like it or not. His throne is above all others and he answers to no one.

Quote:
(Daniel 4:35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Another example of his authority. Men consistently have the audacity to spew forth filth about how God should behave or how they could do better. Please. Side by side, you are less than a amoeba to God, unable to even begin to comprehend the ramifications of what you are up against. You should tremble.

Quote:
(Ephesians 1:3-5) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

See, believers in Jesus have been predestined to believe, selected by God and for God. If you don't believe right now, God has not granted you access to the kingdom. Period. That doesn't mean one day he won't cause events to unfold during your life that causes you to reconsider. This very post might even be the catalyst. Or it might harden you even more. Only time will tell. But ultimately you are not in control of that decision. There is not an atheist here that can will to believe in Jesus apart from God granting it.

But you will ask me then "Why does he find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Quote:
(Ephesians 2:8-10) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Salvation is all of God.

But you will ask me then how is God love?

I would say:

Quote:
(Romans 5:8) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

(Ephesians 2:4-7) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ — by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

(Romans 8:37-39) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So what can I do to be saved?

Step 1, start to trust in what is revealed in the existence of the universe and life on our planet. That is his one glaring testament to all mankind and if you don't attribute and acknowledge that to him, you have no hope at all. Seek out why intelligent people like William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis, Albert Plantinga, and many more chose to trust in Jesus. Squeeze every bit of what actual will you have into understanding. God is not cruel. But he is mysterious. And believing in him, especially in light of the above scripture is not going to happen by you alone. If it does, it will be a series of events that breaks you down to the point where you are tired of running and ready to admit you need him.
 
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Steve
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In my thread about an All-Knowing God I (an atheist) said that Christians had tied themselves into knots.

This is an example, if God knows all about the future then He had to have known from the very beginning.

It is not a big leap to God grants grace to only those that He knew from the beginning would get it.

Calvin pulled out those verses and made a big deal of them. What he and they say is that no person can save her/himself, despite Jesus explicitly dying on the cross to save all who would and/or do believe.

Calvinism is a boat load of crap. Because it can be twisted into permission to do evil things while believing that you, personally, are already saved by God (inexplicitly) having chosen to save you. The OT does say that certain people, like King David, are/were saved and/or beloved of God; despite the evil things that they had done. Therefore, it is [in fact] used by some to claim that they are "good, saved Christians" to the public, while behind closed doors they would let each other each "rape 3 little (6 year old?) girls"*.

When God inspired Paul to write that letter to the Ephesians, he had no way of knowing that Jesus would not return for over 2000 years. God knew, but Paul didn't. So, I don't think that Paul was worried about the effect that such a doctrine would have on developing children.
. . The Puritans were IIRC Calvinists, and they were shocked at how wild children [who were taught that they were already saved and what they did during the next few years didn't matter at all] would become. Some of the children had decided that they had plenty of time yet to repent and God had already guaranteed that they would not die before they did repent.


. * . If you don't believe me, Google the phrase and see what you get.
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Quote:
You should tremble.


What do you think it says about you as a person that your phrasing after 4 edits remains "You should tremble" rather than "We should tremble"?

As in, why is this an accusative?
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Greg
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Terwox wrote:
Quote:
You should tremble.


What do you think it says about you as a person that your phrasing after 4 edits remains "You should tremble" rather than "We should tremble"?

As in, why is this an accusative?

Trace the pronoun back in the context and then ask yourself if I should include myself as the author or not. Believe it or not, this is how a lot of biblical hermanuetics are done to determine accurate interpretation.
 
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Greg
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Steve1501 wrote:
In my thread about an All-Knowing God I (an atheist) said that Christians had tied themselves into knots.

This is an example, if God knows all about the future then He had to have known from the very beginning.

It is not a big leap to God grants grace to only those that He knew from the beginning would get it.

Calvin pulled out those verses and made a big deal of them. What he and they say is that no person can save her/himself, despite Jesus explicitly dying on the cross to save all who would and/or do believe.

Calvinism is a boat load of crap. Because it can be twisted into permission to do evil things while believing that you, personally, are already saved by God (inexplicitly) having chosen to save you. The OT does say that certain people, like King David, are/were saved and/or beloved of God; despite the evil things that they had done. Therefore, it is [in fact] used by some to claim that they are "good, saved Christians" to the public, while behind closed doors they would let each other each "rape 3 little (6 year old?) girls"*.

When God inspired Paul to write that letter to the Ephesians, he had no way of knowing that Jesus would not return for over 2000 years. God knew, but Paul didn't. So, I don't think that Paul was worried about the effect that such a doctrine would have on developing children.
. . The Puritans were IIRC Calvinists, and they were shocked at how wild children [who were taught that they were already saved and what they did during the next few years didn't matter at all] would become. Some of the children had decided that they had plenty of time yet to repent and God had already guaranteed that they would not die before they did repent.


. * . If you don't believe me, Google the phrase and see what you get.

Your arguments can be said of any theological position not just Calvinism. Most of this is virtually off topic, personal opinion, and quite frankly, pointless to me.
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Daniel
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The doctrines of Grace leave us humbled and brought low. How could God show such amazing love to a sinner like me? They give assurance, and hope, and spur us on as we learn more about our God to be more and more holy. God's kindness leads us to repentance.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/The%20Practical%2...
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Steve
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Phate999 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
In my thread about an All-Knowing God I (an atheist) said that Christians had tied themselves into knots.

This is an example, if God knows all about the future then He had to have known from the very beginning.

It is not a big leap to God grants grace to only those that He knew from the beginning would get it.

Calvin pulled out those verses and made a big deal of them. What he and they say is that no person can save her/himself, despite Jesus explicitly dying on the cross to save all who would and/or do believe.

Calvinism is a boat load of crap. Because it can be twisted into permission to do evil things while believing that you, personally, are already saved by God (inexplicitly) having chosen to save you. The OT does say that certain people, like King David, are/were saved and/or beloved of God; despite the evil things that they had done. Therefore, it is [in fact] used by some to claim that they are "good, saved Christians" to the public, while behind closed doors they would let each other each "rape 3 little (6 year old?) girls"*.

When God inspired Paul to write that letter to the Ephesians, he had no way of knowing that Jesus would not return for over 2000 years. God knew, but Paul didn't. So, I don't think that Paul was worried about the effect that such a doctrine would have on developing children.
. . The Puritans were IIRC Calvinists, and they were shocked at how wild children [who were taught that they were already saved and what they did during the next few years didn't matter at all] would become. Some of the children had decided that they had plenty of time yet to repent and God had already guaranteed that they would not die before they did repent.


. * . If you don't believe me, Google the phrase and see what you get.

Your arguments can be said of any theological position not just Calvinism. Most of this is virtually off topic, personal opinion, and quite frankly, pointless to me.

Do you realize that as an atheist, I truly believe that all theological statements/arguments and scripture verses were or are "just personal opinions"? And that as such, are not of much use to anyone except the speaker or author. So, this attack on my reply doesn't cut to the quick at all.

OK, there might be a few historical fact statements hidden in with the opinions. But, 1900+ years later they are impossible to isolate.

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Greg
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Steve1501 wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
In my thread about an All-Knowing God I (an atheist) said that Christians had tied themselves into knots.

This is an example, if God knows all about the future then He had to have known from the very beginning.

It is not a big leap to God grants grace to only those that He knew from the beginning would get it.

Calvin pulled out those verses and made a big deal of them. What he and they say is that no person can save her/himself, despite Jesus explicitly dying on the cross to save all who would and/or do believe.

Calvinism is a boat load of crap. Because it can be twisted into permission to do evil things while believing that you, personally, are already saved by God (inexplicitly) having chosen to save you. The OT does say that certain people, like King David, are/were saved and/or beloved of God; despite the evil things that they had done. Therefore, it is [in fact] used by some to claim that they are "good, saved Christians" to the public, while behind closed doors they would let each other each "rape 3 little (6 year old?) girls"*.

When God inspired Paul to write that letter to the Ephesians, he had no way of knowing that Jesus would not return for over 2000 years. God knew, but Paul didn't. So, I don't think that Paul was worried about the effect that such a doctrine would have on developing children.
. . The Puritans were IIRC Calvinists, and they were shocked at how wild children [who were taught that they were already saved and what they did during the next few years didn't matter at all] would become. Some of the children had decided that they had plenty of time yet to repent and God had already guaranteed that they would not die before they did repent.


. * . If you don't believe me, Google the phrase and see what you get.

Your arguments can be said of any theological position not just Calvinism. Most of this is virtually off topic, personal opinion, and quite frankly, pointless to me.

Do you realize that as an atheist, I truly believe that all theological statements/arguments and scripture verses were or are "just personal opinions"? And that as such, are not of much use to anyone except the speaker or author. So, this attack on my reply doesn't cut to the quick at all.

OK, there might be a few historical fact statements hidden in with the opinions. But, 1900+ years later they are impossible to isolate.


Of course I do. From my viewpoint, and the bible's, you are perishing and so all of this stuff will be folly to you. Did you read the OP?
 
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non sequitur
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Phate999 wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Quote:
You should tremble.


What do you think it says about you as a person that your phrasing after 4 edits remains "You should tremble" rather than "We should tremble"?

As in, why is this an accusative?

Trace the pronoun back in the context and then ask yourself if I should include myself as the author or not. Believe it or not, this is how a lot of biblical hermanuetics are done to determine accurate interpretation.


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Calvinism is one of those ideas where the people who propose it are always sure they are in the group of predestined chosen (or whatever the equivalent is). I'm never quite clear why this is so obvious to them. Especially when many are happy to say that there are others who think they are in the group but aren't.
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David Dearlove
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Phate999 wrote:

Trace the pronoun back in the context and then ask yourself if I should include myself as the author or not. Believe it or not, this is how a lot of biblical hermanuetics are done to determine accurate interpretation.

And what a waste of time that is. Go and read a proper book or go hiking or walk in the park or have sex with your partner. Don't nitpick a translation of a translation compiled from lots of different sources made up by people with different agendas. YOU ONLY GET ONE LIFE, DON'T WASTE IT ON THAT SHIT.
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flamespeak wrote:
Can this thread also be about Calvinball?


Perhaps god requires us to sing the Very Sorry song?

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/05/27
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Phate999 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Do you realize that as an atheist, I truly believe that all theological statements/arguments and scripture verses were or are "just personal opinions"? And that as such, are not of much use to anyone except the speaker or author. So, this attack on my reply doesn't cut to the quick at all.

OK, there might be a few historical fact statements hidden in with the opinions. But, 1900+ years later they are impossible to isolate.


Of course I do. From my viewpoint, and the bible's, you are perishing and so all of this stuff will be folly to you. Did you read the OP?

Do you realize that Revelations says that God will let just 144,000 souls exactly into Heaven. Assuming that when the Rapture happens 2.88 billion Christians will have lived [which seems like a reasonable guess], then by chance alone you, Phate999, have a 1 in 20,000 chance of having been chosen at the beginning by God to be included in the group who goes to Heaven.
. . So, wipe that smug smirk off your face. Your chances are not that much better than mine. And, remember you really have no idea except hope on what basis God made that choice all those years ago [6 thousand or 13+ billions of years].

BTW the oblivion that I expect to endue after I die is exactly the same as the Nirvana that Buddhists hope to reach if they work hard enough at being good for many lifetimes.
. . Of course Hell will suck if I wake up there, but I'll be sure to look you up and rub it into you like you just did to me. [See what Phate999 said and I quoted in this reply.]
. . Obviously, this reply made it half way to my "quick".
 
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David Dearlove
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flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Phate999 wrote:

Trace the pronoun back in the context and then ask yourself if I should include myself as the author or not. Believe it or not, this is how a lot of biblical hermanuetics are done to determine accurate interpretation.

And what a waste of time that is. Go and read a proper bok.


May I recommend this bok?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brand_New_Monty_Python_Bok


Never post on your phone! I used to own that bok I am sure!
 
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Phate999 wrote:

So what can I do to be saved?



You JUST said there is NOTHING anybody gets to DO.

A load of Malarkey by the way but that is what you just freaking SAID.

Quote:


Step 1, start to trust in what is revealed in the existence of the universe and life on our planet. That is his one glaring testament to all mankind and if you don't attribute and acknowledge that to him, you have no hope at all. Seek out why intelligent people like William Lane Craig, C.S. Lewis, Albert Plantinga, and many more chose to trust in Jesus. Squeeze every bit of what actual will you have into understanding. God is not cruel. But he is mysterious. And believing in him, especially in light of the above scripture is not going to happen by you alone. If it does, it will be a series of events that breaks you down to the point where you are tired of running and ready to admit you need him.


Ugg I already have too many bible research tasks on my list to put together all the proof of how wrong you are. The father allows ALL who CHOSE to come, to come. Period it is that simple. The part God plays is the INVITATION and the PATH for those who accept the invitation. But God INVITES EVERYBODY!! That is clearly and overwhelmingly part of scripture in the New Testament.

Predestination in the way you lay it out is load of shit and Calvin was beyond WRONG about it. No matter how much cherry picking of verses you do, the entirely of the message that Christ taught clearly states our choices our OURS to make. God will not force us into the fold but simultaneously will spare NO COST at trying to convince us to willingly choose of our own free will to follow. This isn't some play with the script entirely set. Each of us get to choose our life. Heck making those choices about who and what we are to become is one of the primary purposes for this life.

Start at Matt 1:1 and read through to the end of Acts. You will see predestination is just NOT the message presented there.
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Daniel
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Steve1501 wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Do you realize that as an atheist, I truly believe that all theological statements/arguments and scripture verses were or are "just personal opinions"? And that as such, are not of much use to anyone except the speaker or author. So, this attack on my reply doesn't cut to the quick at all.

OK, there might be a few historical fact statements hidden in with the opinions. But, 1900+ years later they are impossible to isolate.


Of course I do. From my viewpoint, and the bible's, you are perishing and so all of this stuff will be folly to you. Did you read the OP?

Do you realize that Revelations says that God will let just 144,000 souls exactly into Heaven. Assuming that when the Rapture happens 2.88 billion Christians will have lived [which seems like a reasonable guess], then by chance alone you, Phate999, have a 1 in 20,000 chance of having been chosen at the beginning by God to be included in the group who goes to Heaven.
. . So, wipe that smug smirk off your face. Your chances are not that much better than mine. And, remember you really have no idea except hope on what basis God made that choice all those years ago [6 thousand or 13+ billions of years].

BTW the oblivion that I expect to endue after I die is exactly the same as the Nirvana that Buddhists hope to reach if they work hard enough at being good for many lifetimes.
. . Of course Hell will suck if I wake up there, but I'll be sure to look you up and rub it into you like you just did to me. [See what Phate999 said and I quoted in this reply.]
. . Obviously, this reply made it half way to my "quick".


Revelation does not say only 144,000 make it into Heaven FYI.
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Daniel
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Meerkat wrote:


Ugg I already have too many bible research tasks on my list to put together all the proof of how wrong you are. The father allows ALL who CHOSE to come, to come. Period it is that simple. The part God plays is the INVITATION and the PATH for those who accept the invitation. But God INVITES EVERYBODY!! That is clearly and overwhelmingly part of scripture in the New Testament.

Predestination in the way you lay it out is load of shit and Calvin was beyond WRONG about it. No matter how much cherry picking of verses you do, the entirely of the message that Christ taught clearly states our choices our OURS to make. God will not force us into the fold but simultaneously will spare NO COST at trying to convince us to willingly choose of our own free will to follow. This isn't some play with the script entirely set. Each of us get to choose our life. Heck making those choices about who and what we are to become is one of the primary purposes for this life.

Start at Matt 1:1 and read through to the end of Acts. You will see predestination is just NOT the message presented there.


I would suggest that your Bible research consist of strict exegesis of the entire NT. John 6, Romans 8-9, Ephesians 1, included etc. With respect to the original Greek. For example in John 3:16 the Greek is more literally translated as "all the believing ones" rather than an open-ended "whosoever" as if God is out of control as to who will believe.





 
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Daniel
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A good book on the subject was The Potter's Freedom also written by Dr. White in response to Dr. Geisler who wrote Chosen but Free.

https://www.amazon.com/Potters-Freedom-Reformation-Rebuttal-...
 
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Phate999 wrote:
This is another perspective on Christianity that you may not be aware of. Be forewarned that you might not like it.


I'm assuming you only want Christians to comment on your post, correct?
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You realize there are serious reasons to doubt that Paul even met Jesus and was charlatan looking for "earthly" power. It's possible that he's was no more than a prophet then Joseph Smith. Revelation? a book that has no reason to be in the Bible other than it was popular at the time the books were chosen. EVERY Christian needs to spend some time looking at how, when and why the sausage was made, it's enlightening and casts "divine inspiration" in serious doubt.
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rcbevco wrote:
You realize there are serious reasons to doubt that Paul even met Jesus and was charlatan looking for "earthly" power. It's possible that he's was no more than a prophet then Joseph Smith. Revelation? a book that has no reason to be in the Bible other than it was popular at the time the books were chosen. EVERY Christian needs to spend some time looking at how, when and why the sausage was made, it's enlightening and casts "divine inspiration" in serious doubt.


Or the opposite.
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Richard Keiser

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While I was eating my pancakes this morning, the face of God formed in the syrup pool. It peered over at my monitor for several moments, taking in this thread. When it looked back at me, I distinctly heard it gurgle "Fucking idiots, they're all wrong" before the visage faded away. Not sure if that pertained to the OP, the responders, or all of us. Seems like something is out there, but it doesn't take the Hardy Boys to realize we may have drawn the wrong conclusions.

Does that count as a miracle and can someone elect me for Sainthood? I hear they get great perks (hookers and whiskey).

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Richard Keiser

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rcbevco wrote:
You realize there are serious reasons to doubt that Paul even met Jesus and was charlatan looking for "earthly" power. It's possible that he's was no more than a prophet then Joseph Smith. Revelation? a book that has no reason to be in the Bible other than it was popular at the time the books were chosen. EVERY Christian needs to spend some time looking at how, when and why the sausage was made, it's enlightening and casts "divine inspiration" in serious doubt.


I heard one of his "miracles" was a card trick.
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Richard Keiser

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dandechino wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
You realize there are serious reasons to doubt that Paul even met Jesus and was charlatan looking for "earthly" power. It's possible that he's was no more than a prophet then Joseph Smith. Revelation? a book that has no reason to be in the Bible other than it was popular at the time the books were chosen. EVERY Christian needs to spend some time looking at how, when and why the sausage was made, it's enlightening and casts "divine inspiration" in serious doubt.


Or the opposite.


or the opposite of opposite... INSERT IDIOTIC EMOTICON HERE
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Phate999 wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
In my thread about an All-Knowing God I (an atheist) said that Christians had tied themselves into knots.

This is an example, if God knows all about the future then He had to have known from the very beginning.

It is not a big leap to God grants grace to only those that He knew from the beginning would get it.

Calvin pulled out those verses and made a big deal of them. What he and they say is that no person can save her/himself, despite Jesus explicitly dying on the cross to save all who would and/or do believe.

Calvinism is a boat load of crap. Because it can be twisted into permission to do evil things while believing that you, personally, are already saved by God (inexplicitly) having chosen to save you. The OT does say that certain people, like King David, are/were saved and/or beloved of God; despite the evil things that they had done. Therefore, it is [in fact] used by some to claim that they are "good, saved Christians" to the public, while behind closed doors they would let each other each "rape 3 little (6 year old?) girls"*.

When God inspired Paul to write that letter to the Ephesians, he had no way of knowing that Jesus would not return for over 2000 years. God knew, but Paul didn't. So, I don't think that Paul was worried about the effect that such a doctrine would have on developing children.
. . The Puritans were IIRC Calvinists, and they were shocked at how wild children [who were taught that they were already saved and what they did during the next few years didn't matter at all] would become. Some of the children had decided that they had plenty of time yet to repent and God had already guaranteed that they would not die before they did repent.


. * . If you don't believe me, Google the phrase and see what you get.

Your arguments can be said of any theological position not just Calvinism. Most of this is virtually off topic, personal opinion, and quite frankly, pointless to me.


Somebody is working towards their Class four Holy Card this week.
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