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Techno Bowl: Arcade Football Unplugged» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarter Campaign Improvements rss

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I'm not perfect ... Just AWESOME !
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Hello,

I backed the game, because it looks really cool, but I think the kickstarter page can be improved. Here are some thoughts on possible improvements on the campaign page in order to help reaching as much as possible

1. Provide the rules
I know there are videos, but some people prefer the rulebook in order to get a better idea of the game.

2. Have a list of the 32 teams / helmets
That would help if someone wants to select an 'IN THE GAME' pledge to know what team to select.

3. Provide some basic info
Number of players, length of a game, ... These are info that can help people to know if the game will be to their liking.

Hope this will help somehow
Don't hesitate to provide any other ideas you have, I'll update this post to keep the info centralized.
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Everett
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Brent is very against having the rules available, as they don't really do the game any justice (to be fair, they are a bit peculiar. But they work)


I think there is EU friendly shipping as well.




As for the basic info:


There is either seven or eight players per side, the game runs about an hour, and really is easy enough to pick up.
 
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I'm not perfect ... Just AWESOME !
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Indeed, in the shipping section, it is marked that there is US-friendly shipping, Canada-frienldy shipping and EU-friendly shipping.

Regarding the info, my point is that it should appear on the Kickstarter page. I am following the game here on BGG, so I have most of the info I need, but someone that would arrive on the Kickstarter page may have more difficulties finding them.
(And I was meaning number of actual game players, not players per team on the field) Just adding the "2 Players, 60 min" info somewhere on the page could be useful.
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Ken Takacs
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Everett, no offense, but this is the second time you spoke on behalf of Brent regarding a request about the rules. Why can't he speak for himself? I doubt that the the videos and quickstart rules address the complete rules of the game. If the rules are that bad, is this project really ready to go?

I know rules writing is very difficult, I have done it myself. But when someone who is trying to sell their game is reluctant to show me the rules because they apparently are not good, that seems amateurish, and makes me less likely to invest my money. To me, at least, good written rules for a game are just as important as the components.
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Andy Pymont
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kenntak wrote:
If the rules are that bad, is this project really ready to go?

I know rules writing is very difficult, I have done it myself. But when someone who is trying to sell their game is reluctant to show me the rules because they apparently are not good, that seems amateurish, and makes me less likely to invest my money. To me, at least, good written rules for a game are just as important as the components.

I have to agree, the game is not playable with videos and quickstart rules. From what GenCon attendees said, we know Brent has rules and is good at explaining them, but I'm beginning to suspect they're not in good written shape yet and that Brent has realised how much based on the feedback on the quickstart booklet.

As you say, that's a massive problem, rules being ready should have been on the critical path to the kickstarter launch.
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Everett
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NormandyWept wrote:


As you say, that's a massive problem, rules being ready should have been on the critical path to the kickstarter launch.


I wonder about the plausibility of this, after all he had like five months between the first KS and the second to get the rules in shape.


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Brent Spivey
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kenntak wrote:
Everett, no offense, but this is the second time you spoke on behalf of Brent regarding a request about the rules. Why can't he speak for himself? I doubt that the the videos and quickstart rules address the complete rules of the game. If the rules are that bad, is this project really ready to go?

I know rules writing is very difficult, I have done it myself. But when someone who is trying to sell their game is reluctant to show me the rules because they apparently are not good, that seems amateurish, and makes me less likely to invest my money. To me, at least, good written rules for a game are just as important as the components.

While I appreciate Everett speaking up and his intentions, I can definitely speak for myself. It's not that I'm against the rules being out there due to them being bad or not written clearly, but I wanted peoples first exposure to the game to be through the gameplay video before I added them for viewing. Reading rules, no matter how clear or well presented, does no tell you what it''s like to play the game, show you how everything comes together in play, or relate the experience. There are plenty of threads here on BGG related to that topic. I find this to be especially true of rules that feature unique mechanics, new concepts, or subtle interactions. I've put together a few rulesets and have a couple of Origins Award nominations under my best as well as an ENnie Award. I'm not saying that as boast or brag, but rather I'm simply saying that I know how to put a ruleset together.

Quote:
I have to agree, the game is not playable with videos and quickstart rules. From what GenCon attendees said, we know Brent has rules and is good at explaining them, but I'm beginning to suspect they're not in good written shape yet and that Brent has realised how much based on the feedback on the quickstart booklet.

As you say, that's a massive problem, rules being ready should have been on the critical path to the kickstarter launch.

The rules have been in solid written form since well before I sent them to reviewers before the first Kickstarter. They will still need some graphic design work, have images added with an intro to illustrate the game set-up and final components, and have a couple of thoughts added to the FAQ section, but the rules are complete and tight. A couple of people here on BGG who were at Gen Con were given the rules to make an outside editorial review, and other than changing a few words here or there to prevent rules lawyering and reduce the chance of question, all gave it solid marks.

I plan to put up the first portion of the rules out this weekend for everyone to check out, as I wanted everyone to be able to see the video first as a reference for how the written rules look in action. This rules preview will cover everything you need to play the game in TECHNO MODE.

I appreciate everyones enthusiasm, and I look forward to you checking out the rules.
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Brent Spivey
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Skayne wrote:
Hello,

I backed the game, because it looks really cool, but I think the kickstarter page can be improved. Here are some thoughts on possible improvements on the campaign page in order to help reaching as much as possible

1. Provide the rules
I know there are videos, but some people prefer the rulebook in order to get a better idea of the game.

2. Have a list of the 32 teams / helmets
That would help if someone wants to select an 'IN THE GAME' pledge to know what team to select.

3. Provide some basic info
Number of players, length of a game, ... These are info that can help people to know if the game will be to their liking.

Hope this will help somehow
Don't hesitate to provide any other ideas you have, I'll update this post to keep the info centralized.

1. Rules preview incoming!
2. I'm going to start adding team preview in updates, but it takes time as I can't copy paste previously prepared elements due to the way that Kickstarter's interface works.
3. Good point. I'll add that to the FAQ section.

Good tips all-round!
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Everett
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kenntak wrote:
Everett, no offense, but this is the second time you spoke on behalf of Brent regarding a request about the rules. Why can't he speak for himself?



I'm not speaking for him, I'm just answering your question for you.cool


@Brent: It probably would have been a good idea to advertise that you were going to preview some of the rules. My $0.02.
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Andy Pymont
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voodooink wrote:
I appreciate everyones enthusiasm, and I look forward to you checking out the rules.

Thanks Brent for responding to this.

I get that 'video how-to-plays' are all the rage nowadays, and we've all probably experienced that its way easier to be taught a game by somebody rather than reading a rulebook (in fact, being taught face-to-face is the number 1 way to learn, way better than videos in my experience). But I still think there is no substitute to actually reading the rules, when a question comes up in play. I can't reasonably play this with NFL-loving buddies at the moment to try and give them a taste and get them to back the kickstarter, because we'd have things come up in play (as I did already playing solo) and we'd have no way to resolve them.

I guess I'm just expressing my frustration: I tried to play a game but found that as well as the quickstart rules, I needed to dig through the 20+-page main thread on here to make notes about things I vaguely remembered you saying, to make my own extra 2 pages of quickstart rules to go with the ones put out. Even then I had questions and there was no reference for me to go to, to get a simple answer.

Most likely the answer is not to try to play the game yet, to wait until the kickstarter finishes and, if it funds (and fingers crossed it will), I'll get my digital copy. I'm just being impatient because this looks a really interesting game, even more so now that I've actually been able to play it - albeit probably incorrectly as I'm guessing at some of the rules.

If we get a rulebook in the meantime as you're saying, then I'll try to "evangelise" the game and recruit some backers. Unfortunately at the moment that's a bit of a difficult task.
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Brian Jones
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voodooink wrote:
Skayne wrote:
Hello,

I backed the game, because it looks really cool, but I think the kickstarter page can be improved. Here are some thoughts on possible improvements on the campaign page in order to help reaching as much as possible

1. Provide the rules
I know there are videos, but some people prefer the rulebook in order to get a better idea of the game.

2. Have a list of the 32 teams / helmets
That would help if someone wants to select an 'IN THE GAME' pledge to know what team to select.

3. Provide some basic info
Number of players, length of a game, ... These are info that can help people to know if the game will be to their liking.

Hope this will help somehow
Don't hesitate to provide any other ideas you have, I'll update this post to keep the info centralized.

1. Rules preview incoming!
2. I'm going to start adding team preview in updates, but it takes time as I can't copy paste previously prepared elements due to the way that Kickstarter's interface works.
3. Good point. I'll add that to the FAQ section.

Good tips all-round!


Really appreciate the info, and I'm very interested in the game. I think your best bet would be to post a pdf of the rules documents here on BGG as soon as possible.

Speaking only for myself, I will no longer back any Kickstarter project that does not make a full or near full rule set available at some point during the campaign. I appreciate that you want people to experience the play of the game through videos first, but being able to read that rules document is a litmus test that in my opinion cannot be substituted in any way.
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Brent Spivey
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bclayj wrote:
Really appreciate the info, and I'm very interested in the game. I think your best bet would be to post a pdf of the rules documents here on BGG as soon as possible.

Speaking only for myself, I will no longer back any Kickstarter project that does not make a full or near full rule set available at some point during the campaign. I appreciate that you want people to experience the play of the game through videos first, but being able to read that rules document is a litmus test that in my opinion cannot be substituted in any way.

It's coming Brian, it's coming! Just wanted people's first exposure to be a demo due to the unique mechanics and interactions.
 
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Tony Mastrangeli
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voodooink wrote:

It's not that I'm against the rules being out there due to them being bad or not written clearly, but I wanted peoples first exposure to the game to be through the gameplay video before I added them for viewing. Reading rules, no matter how clear or well presented, does no tell you what it''s like to play the game, show you how everything comes together in play, or relate the experience.


To be honest, I closed out your KS page when I saw that there wasn't a gameplay summary on there. Your gameplay video is close to an hour long. There is no way I'm going to watch that up front. I prefer when a KS has a game play section that at least gives the summary of how the game is played, even if it's just the highlights on how a turn works.

Not to sound harsh, but there are currently almost 300 tabletop games actively looking for funding on KS. If a campaign can't capture my attention quickly, I'm leaving.
 
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Brent Spivey
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BoardGameQuest wrote:

To be honest, I closed out your KS page when I saw that there wasn't a gameplay summary on there. Your gameplay video is close to an hour long. There is no way I'm going to watch that up front. I prefer when a KS has a game play section that at least gives the summary of how the game is played, even if it's just the highlights on how a turn works.

Not to sound harsh, but there are currently almost 300 tabletop games actively looking for funding on KS. If a campaign can't capture my attention quickly, I'm leaving.

Thanks for the tip Tony!

I had something there initially, but it just wasn't working the way I wanted it to. I'll take another stab at it. The problem I kept running into was that if I kept it nice and short, it's too hard to see how it's unique and different it is from other sports games. The description is too generic. When I try to focus on the highlights of how a turn works, there ends up being a ton of little details that I need to throw in because of the unique mechanics, and then I end up with a wall of text. To be fair, I do have a link to the rules on there, and the Creating Your Formation, Building Your Play, and The Activation System section give a nice overview of how a down works.

It might be best to have a 5 minute video that just shows us setting up formations and running a single play with a quick explanation.

Thanks again!

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