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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bridgeheads and Exploitation attacks rss

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fangotango
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(1) An ARM and an INF are used to attack across a river, both advance, and a Bridgehead and a Breakthrough marker are placed. In addition, two eligible ARM units advance to the Breakthrough for exploitation.

(2) During exploitation movement, an exploiting ARM unit from a different Breakthrough hex moves onto the BH described in part (1). The Bridgehead now has five units on it: an ARM and INF that made the initial attack; two ARM that advanced into the Breakthrough hex in order to exploit; and one ARM that moved onto the BH during exploitation movement.

The question is, can all three exploiting arm units attack during exploitation? Two ARM are on the hex because they advanced after combat onto the breakthrough marker, which allows unlimited ARM units to attack from it if they remain on their Breakthrough. The third ARM moved to the hex during exploitation movement, but perhaps can attack as one of the two units that are allowed to normally attack from a Bridgehead hex by rule 9.5.

It is that third exploiting ARM unit that I wonder about.

A further question comes to mind. By rule 9.5, can two units attack from a BH marker during regular combat, and also have two exploiting ARM units attack from the BH during exploitation combat if they moved onto the BH during exploitation movement?

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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Without getting deeply into the legalistic argument, IMHO the breakthrough rules are an exception to the BH rules that limit attacks from the BH. It wouldn't make much sense logically to have a BH restrict exploitation attacks from it when there is no limit to the number of attacking armour from any other hex.
 
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fangotango
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The quirk in my scenario is that one of the exploiting ARM units moved to the BH/BT hex from a different BT hex.
 
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Steve Carter
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fangotango wrote:
The quirk in my scenario is that one of the exploiting ARM units moved to the BH/BT hex from a different BT hex.

Without referring to the rulebook (which would require re-reading the entire thing looking for hidden land mines), I would say that it does not matter where the exploiting armor started. Exploitation combat does not take place until after exploitation movement. The fact that some of the units moved to the breakthrough hex and others remained there from a separate combat should not matter, imho.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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fangotango wrote:
The quirk in my scenario is that one of the exploiting ARM units moved to the BH/BT hex from a different BT hex.


Yes, I see where you're coming from. While you're allowed to stack in the exploitation hex without limit, once you've moved off you're limited by the standard stacking rules. So there is definitely ambiguity with respect to how BH stacking / attacking restrictions combine with the exploitation rules.

Forget about two exploitations for the moment. Let's imagine one exploitation, where 5 armour move into a BH hex (the BH hex in this example is different from the breakthrough hex). What can attack out of that BH? I think it has to be limited to 2. What if there was an infantry in the BH at start that attacked out during regular combat? Now only 4 armour can move in, but can 2 or only 1 attack out?
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Quote:
DQB (& 14.37) Can more than five units occupy a bridgehead and more than two attack form it when using it as a Breakthrough hex?

A. Yes


This at least confirms that more than 5 may occupy, and more than 2 attack from a BH if it is a breakthrough hex. However, I'm not sure that really addresses the issue of other armour units moving into the hex and attacking out of it.

Quote:
9.5 Five ground units (plus, of course, airborne) may occupy a Bridgehead. Only two may attack during an Offensive Option...


Could be read as 2 attacks (with the exceptions noted) for the entire offensive option - i.e. covering both regular combat and exploitation combat.
 
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Patrick Bauer
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fangotango wrote:
(1) An ARM and an INF are used to attack across a river, both advance, and a Bridgehead and a Breakthrough marker are placed. In addition, two eligible ARM units advance to the Breakthrough for exploitation.

(2) During exploitation movement, an exploiting ARM unit from a different Breakthrough hex moves onto the BH described in part (1). The Bridgehead now has five units on it: an ARM and INF that made the initial attack; two ARM that advanced into the Breakthrough hex in order to exploit; and one ARM that moved onto the BH during exploitation movement.

The question is, can all three exploiting arm units attack during exploitation? Two ARM are on the hex because they advanced after combat onto the breakthrough marker, which allows unlimited ARM units to attack from it if they remain on their Breakthrough. The third ARM moved to the hex during exploitation movement, but perhaps can attack as one of the two units that are allowed to normally attack from a Bridgehead hex by rule 9.5.

It is that third exploiting ARM unit that I wonder about.

A further question comes to mind. By rule 9.5, can two units attack from a BH marker during regular combat, and also have two exploiting ARM units attack from the BH during exploitation combat if they moved onto the BH during exploitation movement?



Love this question.

Does

14.37 Some or all Exploiting units could have remained on the Breakthrough hex, and all who so remained could have attacked there from, even if "overstacked". But if, after casualties, post-Combat advance, and SR phase, the breakthrough hex should still be overstacked, the attacker must eliminate excess units of his choice. Overstacking is permitted on the Breakthrough hex only—units that move off the Breakthrough hex may not be overstacked at the end of Exploitation movement.

apply or does

9.5 Five ground units (plus, of course, airborne) may occupy a Bridgehead. Only two may attack during an Offensive Option (EXCEPTION: three if all three are British in London). All five are counted if in contact with the enemy during an Attrition Option. All five defend against opponent‘s Offensive Option; all five counterattack when required.

limit this since the other unit moved there during exploitation?

The BH hex is not the exploiting unit's breakthrough hex but it is also not overstacked. It should be able to attack. I'd say it would not have been able to move there if overstack resulted as exploitation movement must heed stacking requirements. So since it is there legally, and exploiting units from different chains can attack the same hex; I'd say that yes they all can attack but the exploiting unit must obey its chain of exploitation.
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fangotango
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So far, seems to be agreement that the exploiting unit that moved into the BH/BT hex from its own BT hex can attack in the situation described in the initial post.

On the other hand, from what has been dug up so far, a strict reading of the rules would be only two units total may attack out of a BH hex during a single offensive option (with the exception of a BH hex that is also a BT hex), and not allow two units to attack during "regular" combat, and another two during exploitation combat.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Although I'm not going to try to make a solid case based on quoting the rules, I think that makes the most sense. So 2 attacks for the entire turn out of a BH hex, but armour that are on their breakthrough hex can attack from it and not count towards the limit of 2.
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fangotango
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At least it seems we don't need to add it to "The List"!
 
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