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War of the Ring: Battles of the Third Age» Forums » General

Subject: Why is this not ranked? rss

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magic gecko
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More than 30 people have ranked this box.

In this box is 2 new games.
Gondor is a new game.
Rohan is a new game.
Monoploy, old school, is not a new game.

"Monopoly - 1935 Commemorative" is ranked.

So why isn't this?
Does BGG just not want this box ranked number 1?

This box also radically improves the 13th ranked game on this site.
When the new box of War of the Ring (complete) comes out, will the separate game get a separate ranking?


Why ask people to rank something and then suppress it?
It has its own page for some reason.
Lots of people seem to have ranked this box for some reason. Why not list it?


When I buy an expansion it is going to be for a game a like, so I am often disappointed.

When the complete WotR is released, it will be an outright better game.
It will not play the same and cant be played as the original.
It will not be an expanded game, it will be a different one.


And yes it matters.
I have used the BGG rankings as a shopping list.
So should you.


Puerto Rico and E&T are a good place to start for a games cabinet.
Or is "Gay Monopoly" the only sort of individual decision making BGG wants?

And also, take a look at the Wargame List.

The front page is the top 50. Coming in at 33 is WotR

WotR has 2559 votes, by far the most on the list.
Of the top 50 Wargames, fully 30 of them have less than 100 votes.
The top 8 all have less than 100.


When WotR is picked up by a stranger, "normal" people buy it.
When Up Front, ASL and Eastfront II is picked up by a stranger, "normal" people put it down.
Aparantly serious wargamers start drooling.


Eastfront II is Number 1 Wargame
"EastFront II is part of a re-release of the entire EuroFront series; the new series consists of EastFront II, WestFront II, and EuroFront II."
Westfront II and Eurofront II are not voted on enough to get a rank.


DAK is Number 2 Wargame
"The 5th entry in The Gamer's popular Operational Combat System"


Three Battles of Manassas is Number 3 Wargame
"A new entry in the Civil War Brigade Series"


The quotes are taken from the opening description of the game.


So if Rohan was reprinted with all of the pieces needed to play it in one box, it would be a game and get its own ranking?

Because of the packaging, the thing inside becomes something else?


Knights & Cities is Settlers plus extra rules.

Rohan is fundamentally different to WotR.
Rohan is not WotR plus extra rules.

Chess is not a "Checkers" expansion, because they use the same board.


But, we agree the the new box of "WotR - 2008 Commemorative Edition" will get a new rank, right?
I have played War of the Ring using all of the rules and substitute everything.

I can play the base game as the expansioned game.
I dont need the expansion to play the expansion.
My expansion doesn't need packaging.
But it is better to actually have the expansion, of course.

That is why the original sized box can easily contain the entire game.

I dont wanna post here any more.
The game is called WotR, not battles of the third age.

This page is a small additional page that wont get found, read or replied to.

This is one of the many reasons this page should be abandoned, and all information relating to the Actual Game transferred to the Actual WotR page.

There are now four different pages to look at.

WotR on BGG
WotR on BGG, battles
Veldrins hardcore site
& the publisher's froth propaganda site


"the original box can easily contain the entire (strategy) expansion."
The original page can easily contain the entire (strategy) expansion too.

This page is redundant since the base game just shouldn't be played, unless you are ignorant, in which case you have not read this and probably wont.
(Ignorance is not an insult by the way. Ignorance is merely being uninformed. And yeah, I really enjoyed playing in ignorance, heaps.)

Personally I prefer the hardcore site.
The restrictions on BGG are really limiting, but you get that if you have to talk loudly on a bus to foreigners.

I only have one language, so I do not make fun of foreigners speaking it. After all, I could not reply in their language at all.
The frustration of this is that most people with English as a second language have the same small pool of words to communicate with when talking to another foreigner, even if they are from other ends of the earth.

WotR is not a limited version of Rohan.
When playing Rohan, you are not playing WotR.
How is Rohan less of a game than these?
 
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Mark Casiglio
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Because you cannot just pick up Battles of the Third Age and play Gondor or Rohan. You have to own War of the Ring already. You can, however go out today and pick up Gay Monopoly and play that right away. If you're into that sort of thing ...



Monopoly, that is ...
 
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Ugur Dönmez
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magic gecko wrote:


And yes it matters.
I have used the BGG rankings as a shopping list.

So should you.


Oh my God!! I have just seen the light!!

All this time I was just buying games that appealed to ME, games that I somehow had enjoyed or found very interesting! What a dumb way of going about it! Of course, all along I just should have blindly printed out the top 50 BGG ranked gamed and bought those!

I'm going straight to AllGames now to order the ones I'm missing!

Individual decision making... what was I thinking?? shake
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Darren M
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This issue certainly isn't worth fighting over. The admins and Aldie have just determined that only base games would be ranked on BGG. For better or worse that's just the way it is. One factor that may have gone into this is that some newbies to the big bright world of boardgaming might see a very highly ranked expansion on BGG and purchase it without knowing it's actually not a standalone game... leading to disappointment.

I know it's a case of everyone having to take responsibility for reading the descriptions and doing their research before buying but many people stop in for just a few minutes here and don't always look and read as thoroughly as they probably should.

Also, as others have said... there is somewhat of a bias in the average ratings for many expansions as they by and large are purchased by those that likely are already predisposed to liking them because they've already played and like the base game.

To some extent though we could probably say the same thing about the various versions of game like Carcassonne and Ticket To Ride for example.

ALL that said... the Bayesian averages are actually computed for all games... base games and expansions.

Go to advanced search... select games rated between 0 and 10 with minimum 30 ratings. The next page with results will come up. There you can click on the header to sort by Bayesian averages which is what the ranks are based on. That will get all the games and expansions with >30 ratings in order of their Bayesian averages.

By counting the listings before it... War of the Ring - Battles of the Third Age comes in as rated #39th overall by Bayesian average. It's right there between the #31 rated game Imperial and the #32 rated game Tichu.

It's also the #8 rated expansion by Bayesian average rank.

It actually might be a good idea to have all expansions on their own little ranking list (like wargames have) just so they aren't orphaned and left out of all the rankings fun.
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David Chapman
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Which begs the question: what is an expansion? Cities and Knights of Catan is a very different game to Settlers, but you need the base set to play.
 
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Doug Buel
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The palette-swapped versions of Monopoly probably should not each have their own rankings. They really are the same game.

Mega Monopoly, however, is truly different.
 
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Derek H
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Jedit wrote:
Which begs the question: what is an expansion? Cities and Knights of Catan is a very different game to Settlers, but you need the base set to play.

Then its an expansion; unlike, say "Settlers of Canaan" which is a complete game on its own (albeit part of the same 'family' of games).
 
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Derek H
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magic gecko wrote:
Rohan and Gondor are not expansions.
There is no base game for them to expand
They have separate rules and strategy.
They have many distinct pieces that cannot be used in War of the Ring.

So, Gay Monopoly is a game because it comes in a box. (Fnar! Fnar!)
Rohan is not a game because it comes in two boxes?

So, Canasta is not a game because you need 2 sets of Bridge cards, therefore Canasta is an expansion and should not be listed.

See Mark Casiglio's post above - he has already answered this issue. If you feel very strongly about this, why not take it up directly with the administrator(s)? As users, we can't change it, and recycling the same arguments is not going to help.
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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magic gecko wrote:
Rohan and Gondor are not expansions.
...
They have many distinct pieces that cannot be used in War of the Ring.


They are expansions, because they expand the original game. They take the pieces of the original game and expand them with new rules, cards, units, maps... but they are still building off the original game. Thus: expansion.
 
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Derek H
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I am not an expert on the games you mention but, usually, when wargames are part of a "series", that means they share some common theme and, usually, the same core mechanics. However, each game is playable on its own - and sometimes can be combined together to form a "monster" game. These type of games meet the BGG criteria for a rankable (i.e. standalone) game. Expansions, as BagpipeDan pointed out, do not.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Jedit wrote:
Which begs the question: what is an expansion? Cities and Knights of Catan is a very different game to Settlers, but you need the base set to play.

I would say the latter part of that is the key; if you need "the base set" to play, then it's an expansion, even if the gameplay WITH the expansion is quite different.

Thus, while the Rohan and Gondor scenarios may be quite different than the regular War of the Ring, because you need the base set to PLAY it, it would qualify as an expansion (that, and the fact that some of the pieces ARE meant to directly expand the base game).
 
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Derek H
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magic gecko wrote:
So if Rohan was reprinted with all of the pieces needed to play it in one box, it would be a game and get its own ranking?

I think you have got it now.
magic gecko wrote:
But, we agree the the new box of "WotR - 2008 Commemorative Edition" will get a new rank, right?

If its a complete game in one "package", then yes.
 
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Alan Bright
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Straight out of the box
magic gecko wrote:
...the original sized box can easily contain the entire game.

I agree with the artist formerly known as Magic Geek: the original box can easily contain the entire (strategy) expansion. We use the expansion box to keep the boards for the Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith games and the pieces that are unique to the game. Everything else goes in the original box.

I shall leave others to decide the relevance of this point.
 
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Philip Thomas
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If you didn't want to post here any more, you would have stopped posting here, barring duress which I think unlikely.

The BGG system has its quirks. Lord of the Rings: the Confrontation Deluxe edition is a seperate game from Lord of the Rings:the Confrontation and gets a seperate place in the rankings. This doesn't. That seems illogical to me. The solution however is not to merge expansion entries with main games: that would merely further confuse matters (For instance, information on the main game page that was correct for the expansion would not necesarily be correct for the main game alone, possibly leading to confusion).
 
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