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Xander Fulton
United States
Lake Oswego
Oregon
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In which Mike Pence helpfully suggests that cigarettes don't kill you, which is surely unrelated to the constant stream of donations to his campaigns from the tobacco (and related) industries...

Quote:
And Indiana’s public health has paid the price. In 2015, Pence signed a law making it easier to create cigar bars in the state. And his administration slashed the already small amount of the tobacco tax and settlement money available for smoking prevention and cessation in 2013, well below the CDC’s recommended levels. According to the Indianapolis Business Journal, “Funding for Indiana Tobacco Prevention and Cessation was down to $8 million per year when Pence took office in January 2013. And within his first week, the Pence administration slashed the agency’s budget to $5 million.”

Indiana now has the highest adult smoking rates of any state in the industrial midwest region and the seventh highest smoking rate in the nation. With among the lowest tobacco taxes of any state, public health experts warn the state is “really in bad shape.” Indeed a 2014 article noted that 17 percent of pregnant women smoke — nearly double the national average — and this has been linked to lower birth weights and higher rates of infant mortality. As a result, it noted, “the state spends $28 million a year on health costs for infants born to mothers who smoke.”
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Sam I am
United States
Portage
Michigan
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Hush... Only HRC is bought and paid for. Get with the program angry
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Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
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He is right, they do not, it's the deceases they help propagate that do.
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Xander Fulton
United States
Lake Oswego
Oregon
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slatersteven wrote:
He is right, they do not, it's the deceases they help propagate that do.


That's a bit like arguing 'guns don't kill people, bullets do'. Pretty sure it's okay to attribute the final effect to its inseparable source, rather than only to the very last thing in the chain of events.
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Boaty McBoatface
England
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XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
He is right, they do not, it's the deceases they help propagate that do.


That's a bit like arguing 'guns don't kill people, bullets do'. Pretty sure it's okay to attribute the final effect to its inseparable source, rather than only to the very last thing in the chain of events.
That was my point.

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Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
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What was Mike Pence's "greatest achievement" for Indiana? "It's GONE, MacCready!" whistle
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Richard Keiser

Waunakee
Wisconsin
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XanderF wrote:
In which Mike Pence helpfully suggests that cigarettes don't kill you, which is surely unrelated to the constant stream of donations to his campaigns from the tobacco (and related) industries...

Quote:
And Indiana’s public health has paid the price. In 2015, Pence signed a law making it easier to create cigar bars in the state. And his administration slashed the already small amount of the tobacco tax and settlement money available for smoking prevention and cessation in 2013, well below the CDC’s recommended levels. According to the Indianapolis Business Journal, “Funding for Indiana Tobacco Prevention and Cessation was down to $8 million per year when Pence took office in January 2013. And within his first week, the Pence administration slashed the agency’s budget to $5 million.”

Indiana now has the highest adult smoking rates of any state in the industrial midwest region and the seventh highest smoking rate in the nation. With among the lowest tobacco taxes of any state, public health experts warn the state is “really in bad shape.” Indeed a 2014 article noted that 17 percent of pregnant women smoke — nearly double the national average — and this has been linked to lower birth weights and higher rates of infant mortality. As a result, it noted, “the state spends $28 million a year on health costs for infants born to mothers who smoke.”


It just means more houses and land at a much cheaper price in the high-flying state of Indiana.

OK, so maybe not such a boon.

 
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Erik Henry
United States
Manvel
Texas
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From the data in these two articles, Republicans are 15% less likely to be smokers. As with voter ID laws, maybe there's another motivation behind his actions . . . whistle

Gallup Poll: Smoking

Are republicans healthier than democrats?
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J.D. Hall
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Cigar bars are cool. You health geek-freaks, when you're 101 and watching that 300-pound nurse with the Tom Selleck mustache flip your ancient ass over to whip the crap off your buttcheeks, you enjoy that long, miserable, overly-careful, never-experienced-shit life.

We all are gonna die. I want to drink deeply from the experience of life, not hide in my germ-free house eating gluten-free kale and staring at my mobile phone. Better to burn out then to fade away.

But Pence is kind of a dick.
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Humulus Lupulus
United States
Andover
Massachusetts
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remorseless1 wrote:
Cigar bars are cool. You health geek-freaks, when you're 101 and watching that 300-pound nurse with the Tom Selleck mustache flip your ancient ass over to whip the crap off your buttcheeks, you enjoy that long, miserable, overly-careful, never-experienced-shit life.

We all are gonna die. I want to drink deeply from the experience of life, not hide in my germ-free house eating gluten-free kale and staring at my mobile phone. Better to burn out then to fade away.

But Pence is kind of a dick.

Okay, fair enough. But that doesn't address this problem:
Quote:
Indeed a 2014 article noted that 17 percent of pregnant women smoke — nearly double the national average — and this has been linked to lower birth weights and higher rates of infant mortality. As a result, it noted, “the state spends $28 million a year on health costs for infants born to mothers who smoke.”
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Scott Russell
United States
Clarkston
Michigan
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Well, to be fair, more smokers means more jobs from the tobacco fields to the cigarette factories to the admen to the healthcare to the funeral directors....
 
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fightcitymayor
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
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remorseless1 wrote:
You health geek-freaks, when you're 101 and watching that 300-pound nurse with the Tom Selleck mustache flip your ancient ass over to whip the crap off your buttcheeks,
That sounds dangerous.

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Lone Locust of the Apocalypse
United States
Sandworms USA
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Indiana, the most Southern of the Midwestern states...hell even Missouri is better.
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David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
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flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.

Every time the law is changed here is the UK (most recently banning smoking indoors except in private dwellings) smoking drops.
And every time we have restricted firearms firearms deaths dropped.
Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.
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David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
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remorseless1 wrote:
Cigar bars are cool. You health geek-freaks, when you're 101 and watching that 300-pound nurse with the Tom Selleck mustache flip your ancient ass over to whip the crap off your buttcheeks, you enjoy that long, miserable, overly-careful, never-experienced-shit life.

We all are gonna die. I want to drink deeply from the experience of life, not hide in my germ-free house eating gluten-free kale and staring at my mobile phone. Better to burn out then to fade away.

But Pence is kind of a dick.

Of couse smoking increases your chance of having a degraded old age. It doesn't kill you like a switch with no pain you know. Enjoy the amputation due to bad circulation, or struggling to get every breath. Then you'll feel cool.
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David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
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flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.

Every time the law is changed here is the UK (most recently banning smoking indoors except in private dwellings) smoking drops.
And every time we have restricted firearms firearms deaths dropped.
Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.


Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by 'they will never stop'.

"Please, only smoke in that one section of the restaurant/plane/train please?"
OK
"If its not too much trouble just keep it at the bar instead and don't do it on the trains and planes anymore, please?"
OK
"In fact, can you just take it outside?"
OK
"Not that close to the door, please?"
Ok
"No, now you are too close to the park. In fact, how about you just don't do that in public places at all, please?"
I. Is it legal to smoke?
"Of course silly, just not anywhere around other people on the planet or else you are Satan and need to pay some fines."

I think extending gun control in the UK has probably stopped and the vast majority are happy with the result. You have a different culture and must make your own decisions, baffling as they are to the British.
As for the smoking. The trouble is that smoke is horrible and a lot of smokers are rude shits who force non smokers to walk though it. This is even leaving aside that it damages non-smokers health.
There was no smoke free zone in a plane, just areas that stank less. Smokers smoke upwind from me at bus stops and form a circle round doors so I have to walk through their shit. The reason the majority turned on them was their complete lack of courtesy.
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David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
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flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.

Every time the law is changed here is the UK (most recently banning smoking indoors except in private dwellings) smoking drops.
And every time we have restricted firearms firearms deaths dropped.
Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.


Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by 'they will never stop'.

"Please, only smoke in that one section of the restaurant/plane/train please?"
OK
"If its not too much trouble just keep it at the bar instead and don't do it on the trains and planes anymore, please?"
OK
"In fact, can you just take it outside?"
OK
"Not that close to the door, please?"
Ok
"No, now you are too close to the park. In fact, how about you just don't do that in public places at all, please?"
I. Is it legal to smoke?
"Of course silly, just not anywhere around other people on the planet or else you are Satan and need to pay some fines."

I think extending gun control in the UK has probably stopped and the vast majority are happy with the result. You have a different culture and must make your own decisions, baffling as they are to the British.
As for the smoking. The trouble is that smoke is horrible and a lot of smokers are rude shits who force non smokers to walk though it. This is even leaving aside that it damages non-smokers health.
There was no smoke free zone in a plane, just areas that stank less. Smokers smoke upwind from me at bus stops and form a circle round doors so I have to walk through their shit. The reason the majority turned on them was their complete lack of courtesy.


You seem to know a lot about smoking related issues, right?
What are the benefits of smoking?

Mostly relieving the symptoms of nicotine addiction.
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Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
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remorseless1 wrote:
Cigar bars are cool. You health geek-freaks, when you're 101 and watching that 300-pound nurse with the Tom Selleck mustache flip your ancient ass over to whip the crap off your buttcheeks, you enjoy that long, miserable, overly-careful, never-experienced-shit life.

We all are gonna die. I want to drink deeply from the experience of life, not hide in my germ-free house eating gluten-free kale and staring at my mobile phone. Better to burn out then to fade away.

But Pence is kind of a dick.
Yes, Cough, no doubt you, Cough retch, enjoy life more then us, Cough wheeze, cough, us no smokers.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
England
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flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.
Same here, selfish people who do not see why they should not give me lung cancer becasue they think coughing their lungs up is pleasurable.

Maybe if smokers had given an inch and not said "well it's not agasint the law" every time someone asked to to not smoke in the designated non smoking areas of this cinema" we would not have laws making it illegal.
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Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
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flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.

Every time the law is changed here is the UK (most recently banning smoking indoors except in private dwellings) smoking drops.
And every time we have restricted firearms firearms deaths dropped.
Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.


Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by 'they will never stop'.

"Please, only smoke in that one section of the restaurant/plane/train please?"
No, it's not against the law.
"If its not too much trouble just keep it at the bar instead and don't do it on the trains and planes anymore, please?"
No, it's not against the law.
"In fact, can you just take it outside?"
OK, but will will stand as close to the door as we can blocking it and making a right mess leaving cigarette buts pilled up.
"No, that close to the door, please?"
Ok, but this is persecution, it's not as if we have not tried to be nice.
"No, now you are too close to the park. In fact, how about you just don't do that in public places at all, please?"
I. Is it legal to smoke?
"Of course silly, just not anywhere around other people on the planet or else you are Satan and need to pay some fines."
Again, maybe if smokers had been that conciliatory it would now not be illegal.

Remember this as well, smoking is not just your habit, it is the habit of everyone around you, even if they do not smoke.
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Mutton Chops
United Kingdom
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flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.


I don't give a monkey's stuff whether people want to smoke or not - they can do as they like in that regard. I do care very much about not having to breathe in their smoke. In an enclosed space, it's extremely unpleasant, and so I welcomed the smoking ban in enclosed public spaces here in the UK - no more being kippered in bars and at gigs, no more having one's restaurant dinner ruined by the stink. I'd love it to be extended to open public spaces, but since it's easier to avoid in such places, and the effect is diluted, it's a compromise I'm happy with. As more and more give up smoking or replace it with "vaping" in this country (and exposure to vaping is generally less unpleasant for the non-smoker than exposure to actual smoke) it's becoming less and less of an issue. Those trends have clearly been accelerated by the ban.

Like most things, I draw the line at the point where someone's liberty to do a thing unnecessary to their survival impinges on my liberty not to be harmed.
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Boaty McBoatface
England
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flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.

Every time the law is changed here is the UK (most recently banning smoking indoors except in private dwellings) smoking drops.
And every time we have restricted firearms firearms deaths dropped.
Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.


Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by 'they will never stop'.

"Please, only smoke in that one section of the restaurant/plane/train please?"
OK
"If its not too much trouble just keep it at the bar instead and don't do it on the trains and planes anymore, please?"
OK
"In fact, can you just take it outside?"
OK
"Not that close to the door, please?"
Ok
"No, now you are too close to the park. In fact, how about you just don't do that in public places at all, please?"
I. Is it legal to smoke?
"Of course silly, just not anywhere around other people on the planet or else you are Satan and need to pay some fines."

I think extending gun control in the UK has probably stopped and the vast majority are happy with the result. You have a different culture and must make your own decisions, baffling as they are to the British.
As for the smoking. The trouble is that smoke is horrible and a lot of smokers are rude shits who force non smokers to walk though it. This is even leaving aside that it damages non-smokers health.
There was no smoke free zone in a plane, just areas that stank less. Smokers smoke upwind from me at bus stops and form a circle round doors so I have to walk through their shit. The reason the majority turned on them was their complete lack of courtesy.


You seem to know a lot about smoking related issues, right?
What are the benefits of smoking?

Mostly relieving the symptoms of nicotine addiction.


Sure, we could go with that. We could also show how it is a proven neuro-protector (although how it achieves this effect is unknown still because it wasn't discovered until the early 2000's). Simply put, it has shown to have a positive effect on the brain's health.

Of course I don't expect anyone to really be familiar with the positive effects of smoking as it has been utterly ignored by most medical fields. Treating depression, preventing Alzheimer's and Parkinson's (as in cutting the rates of getting those disease in half), and other still unknown effects because medical science has never tried to see what real positive could be gained from it.

Why is that?

Oh, and Slater, if you are worried about Lung Cancer, I can point you to a study that shows Whole Milk and Vitamin A are worse than cigarettes in causing that condition. Of course, that study is probably wrong as I haven't seen any replication of it yet. Then again, I haven't seen anybody TRY to replicate it either.
Generally people do not come up to me and poor milk down my throat.
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David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
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flamespeak wrote:
We could also show how it is a proven neuro-protector (although how it achieves this effect is unknown still because it wasn't discovered until the early 2000's). Simply put, it has shown to have a positive effect on the brain's health.


Of course you could could quote that study and then I could quote the rebuttals. I assume you smoke. Therefore your nicotine addicted brain will grasp at any straw that tells you that you aren't really killing yourself and that you must have a rational reason to smoke because otherwise you have stupidly surrendered free will to a drug.
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David Dearlove
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Isleworth
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flamespeak wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.


I don't give a monkey's stuff whether people want to smoke or not - they can do as they like in that regard. I do care very much about not having to breathe in their smoke. In an enclosed space, it's extremely unpleasant, and so I welcomed the smoking ban in enclosed public spaces here in the UK - no more being kippered in bars and at gigs, no more having one's restaurant dinner ruined by the stink. I'd love it to be extended to open public spaces, but since it's easier to avoid in such places, and the effect is diluted, it's a compromise I'm happy with. As more and more give up smoking or replace it with "vaping" in this country (and exposure to vaping is generally less unpleasant for the non-smoker than exposure to actual smoke) it's becoming less and less of an issue. Those trends have clearly been accelerated by the ban.

Like most things, I draw the line at the point where someone's liberty to do a thing unnecessary to their survival impinges on my liberty not to be harmed.


If you don't recognize how a blanket ban like that is retarded, you have problems. Don't get me wrong, we got hit with that too in my area. We had a restaurant that had a smoking section that was literally a separate building for a long time. You had to be over the age of 18 to even go inside of the thing and all it was, was a simple diner. It was a hole in the wall building separate from the main establishment to avoid people having to deal with smokers because of the complaints you mentioned. That blanket ban? Yup, that building became illegal when it literally was set-up so as not to bother anybody.

Common sense is ignored basically all blanket bans.

It was not set up to not bother people. I assume employees had to enter it? So they were exposed to smoke.
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Mutton Chops
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flamespeak wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
Are we talking about smoking? That's wonderful.

Smoking laws are what I point to when people give me flak about not listening to those who want to pass 'sensible gun control laws'. It has been show that they will never stop and will never be happy. Don't give them an inch.


I don't give a monkey's stuff whether people want to smoke or not - they can do as they like in that regard. I do care very much about not having to breathe in their smoke. In an enclosed space, it's extremely unpleasant, and so I welcomed the smoking ban in enclosed public spaces here in the UK - no more being kippered in bars and at gigs, no more having one's restaurant dinner ruined by the stink. I'd love it to be extended to open public spaces, but since it's easier to avoid in such places, and the effect is diluted, it's a compromise I'm happy with. As more and more give up smoking or replace it with "vaping" in this country (and exposure to vaping is generally less unpleasant for the non-smoker than exposure to actual smoke) it's becoming less and less of an issue. Those trends have clearly been accelerated by the ban.

Like most things, I draw the line at the point where someone's liberty to do a thing unnecessary to their survival impinges on my liberty not to be harmed.


If you don't recognize how a blanket ban like that is retarded,


"Retarded"? <sigh> Well, no, I don't recognise it, because it's the only way that people who have chosen not to smoke are not affected negatively by the choices of those who have, and that includes (as DavidDearlove pointed out) those who work in places where smoking is allowed. Of course, some people would argue that no-one is compelled to work in such a place, an argument so remarkably asinine, for so many reasons that I won't bother addressing them here.

flamespeak wrote:
Don't get me wrong, we got hit with that too in my area. We had a restaurant that had a smoking section that was literally a separate building for a long time. You had to be over the age of 18 to even go inside of the thing and all it was, was a simple diner. It was a hole in the wall building separate from the main establishment to avoid people having to deal with smokers because of the complaints you mentioned. That blanket ban? Yup, that building became illegal when it literally was set-up so as not to bother anybody.

Common sense is ignored basically all blanket bans.


How is it "common sense" to fail to protect people from carcinogens? As I've said, if you wish to smoke 40, 60, 100 cigarettes a day in your own home, or outside in the street, so that the impact of the proven health disbenefits of smoke is not felt by other people, then you are welcome to do so. What you're not welcome to do is to impose those disbenefits on others. That's not "common sense", it's selfishness.
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