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Subject: Yoda Needn't be on Dagobah rss

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Mark Chiddicks
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Because players have seen the movies (and played the game) the imperial player knows Yoda is on Dagobah and knows Luke wants to go there, which gives them a totally out-of-theme motivation to station troops on that otherwise worthless rock to capture him, or dissuade him from going.

This is trivially easy to fix - just change the mission to say 'any remote system'. There's absolutely no game balance reason for Yoda to be on Dagobah. He's not a native of Dagobah (as far as we know) and since the empire are not supposed to know he exists I think there's no reason for that card to follow the plot of 'Empire'.

Thoughts?
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Jason Sherlock
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KinginAmber wrote:
Because players have seen the movies (and played the game) the imperial player knows Yoda is on Dagobah and knows Luke wants to go there, which gives them a totally out-of-theme motivation to station troops on that otherwise worthless rock to capture him, or dissuade him from going.

This is trivially easy to fix - just change the mission to say 'any remote system'. There's absolutely no game balance reason for Yoda to be on Dagobah. He's not a native of Dagobah (as far as we know) and since the empire are not supposed to know he exists I think there's no reason for that card to follow the plot of 'Empire'.

Thoughts?


I don't see a problem. However, I have not seen the Empire wasting time and troops garrisoning that worthless rock before.
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jooice ZP
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I have definitely tried to keep a fleet either nearby or on Dagobah and a capture mission ready when I see Luke on a mission.

In fact I have even purposefully left Dagobah without a troop to set a Yoda trap.

I actually like this idea.
I am not sure I will use it, but I agree that the meta gaming of this is weird, the same is true for the kashyyys and bespin missions/actions.
 
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Mark Chiddicks
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Note that my idea also gets rid of the weird situation where the Death Star can destroy Dagobah without harming Yoda, and Luke can still visit its remains to be trained! (word the card to say 'any intact remote system')

Kashykk is a different situation - the empire know its full of Wookies who might rebel at any moment - so that mission works as it is - its a risk to subjugate it.
 
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KinginAmber wrote:
Note that my idea also gets rid of the weird situation where the Death Star can destroy Dagobah


I have to say Dagobah is not a planet I forsee ever blowing up, there is no point to it.

The rebel base won't be there, and most likely I already have presence on Utupau.
The huge advantage of blowing up a system is that a second system in the region gains loyalty, I have only blown up a planet for the second reason (except when I blew up the rebel base)
 
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Matt Kruse
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You could also just solve it and keep the theme of Yoda on Dagobah by making a house rule change that makes Luke impervious to capture when he goes on that Yoda mission. The planet's a big swamp. Thematically Luke could have slipped onto the planet undetected on the other side of the planet or something.
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Saro Gumusyan

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If the Empire leaves a garrison there the Rebel player could try planting leaders through Infiltration (Leia and someone with spec ops) and activation (hopefully Wedge or Han, at the very least Riekaan) before saving the training for last. Chewie would be the trump card here, and with his action card you don't have to sweat anything. It's a lot of leaders for the Rebels to sink but they often have this luxury.

Of course even with the best laid plans Fett and Collect Bounty is hard to beat.
 
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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Jedi Luke is a pretty good leader, especially when played with the ROTJ card. But I don't think he's good enough to base both teams' strategies around. Heck, most games I've found that the Empire is better off just focusing on Mon Mothma instead.

If the Empire wants to waste their time stationing a small force on Dagobah, I guess it's not too anti-thematic. After all, the Empire did try to expand its presence as much as possible. We even see them on Tatooine in Episode IV.

If the Empire wants to REALLY waster their time by putting a huge force on Dagobah- well, that's just a crappy strategy and they'll most like suffer the consequences.
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jooice ZP
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They dont need a huge force, just 1 trooper that is also blcoking the rebels from moving their base to dagobah.
that stormtrooper gives the oppertunity to capture Jedi Luke, not much planning required. all cause Luke HAD to go to a specific remote system (that isnt actually out of the way like the other remote systems)
 
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Mike Gallo
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Weird suggestion, but what if it was a "Random Planet" instead of one of the Rebel player's choice? I think the flavor of the Rebel player not knowing where Yoda is and then leaving to find him while they are unsure of where they are going adds to the flavor of "Seeking Yoda".

Just spitballing but what if the Rebel player flips over the top card of the Probe deck and that is where Yoda is. At that point the Rebel player can either complete the mission on that system or abandon the mission (not sending the leader, but losing the card). It prevents the Empire player from "camping" yoda but gives them a probe card for the trouble. Maybe the probe card is shuffled into the deck instead of them keeping it?
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Michael Ptak
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Seek Yoda is a resolve, so it can't be opposed. I usually hold Seek Yoda in reserve until my opponent has run out of combat characters on mission cards, which clues me in that he doesn't have a capture agent mission on deck.

If he does, I can try to force him to pass by kicking other character missions until Empire runs out of character activations that aren't the capture mission. Once Empire is forced to pass on that mission I can send Luke to see yoda and recover him for free at the end of the turn.

When I guess a capture mission is opposite of me it also gives me more ambition to kick off my other leaders, knowing that Vader or Fett might not be able to capture them. If Empire chooses to activate against that other target, Luke visits Yoda unscathed.

I can also assign two cards to Seek Yoda. One is Luke obviously, but I could also send him with Chewie. Kicking off another combat mission there against Imperial targets with another combat commander can also set up to protect Luke.

I don't feel at all that Seek Yoda is so impossible to carry out that it needs a re-targeting solution like this.
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its super easy to carry out.
But I agree with the OP that its not very thematic that the Empire knows where Yoda is to go wait for Jedi Luke
 
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Jason Sherlock
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Norsehound wrote:
Seek Yoda is a resolve, so it can't be opposed. I usually hold Seek Yoda in reserve until my opponent has run out of combat characters on mission cards, which clues me in that he doesn't have a capture agent mission on deck.

If he does, I can try to force him to pass by kicking other character missions until Empire runs out of character activations that aren't the capture mission. Once Empire is forced to pass on that mission I can send Luke to see yoda and recover him for free at the end of the turn.

When I guess a capture mission is opposite of me it also gives me more ambition to kick off my other leaders, knowing that Vader or Fett might not be able to capture them. If Empire chooses to activate against that other target, Luke visits Yoda unscathed.

I can also assign two cards to Seek Yoda. One is Luke obviously, but I could also send him with Chewie. Kicking off another combat mission there against Imperial targets with another combat commander can also set up to protect Luke.

I don't feel at all that Seek Yoda is so impossible to carry out that it needs a re-targeting solution like this.


Our experience is that the Imperials usually have more leaders than the Rebels (from previous capture/ carbonite or Lure to the Dark side). So they are generally able to wait out the Rebels when it comes to leader usage.
 
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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jackalope wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
Seek Yoda is a resolve, so it can't be opposed. I usually hold Seek Yoda in reserve until my opponent has run out of combat characters on mission cards, which clues me in that he doesn't have a capture agent mission on deck.

If he does, I can try to force him to pass by kicking other character missions until Empire runs out of character activations that aren't the capture mission. Once Empire is forced to pass on that mission I can send Luke to see yoda and recover him for free at the end of the turn.

When I guess a capture mission is opposite of me it also gives me more ambition to kick off my other leaders, knowing that Vader or Fett might not be able to capture them. If Empire chooses to activate against that other target, Luke visits Yoda unscathed.

I can also assign two cards to Seek Yoda. One is Luke obviously, but I could also send him with Chewie. Kicking off another combat mission there against Imperial targets with another combat commander can also set up to protect Luke.

I don't feel at all that Seek Yoda is so impossible to carry out that it needs a re-targeting solution like this.


Our experience is that the Imperials usually have more leaders than the Rebels (from previous capture/ carbonite or Lure to the Dark side). So they are generally able to wait out the Rebels when it comes to leader usage.


All the Rebels have to do to nullify this is to pass turn.
 
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Jason Sherlock
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:
jackalope wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
Seek Yoda is a resolve, so it can't be opposed. I usually hold Seek Yoda in reserve until my opponent has run out of combat characters on mission cards, which clues me in that he doesn't have a capture agent mission on deck.

If he does, I can try to force him to pass by kicking other character missions until Empire runs out of character activations that aren't the capture mission. Once Empire is forced to pass on that mission I can send Luke to see yoda and recover him for free at the end of the turn.

When I guess a capture mission is opposite of me it also gives me more ambition to kick off my other leaders, knowing that Vader or Fett might not be able to capture them. If Empire chooses to activate against that other target, Luke visits Yoda unscathed.

I can also assign two cards to Seek Yoda. One is Luke obviously, but I could also send him with Chewie. Kicking off another combat mission there against Imperial targets with another combat commander can also set up to protect Luke.

I don't feel at all that Seek Yoda is so impossible to carry out that it needs a re-targeting solution like this.


Our experience is that the Imperials usually have more leaders than the Rebels (from previous capture/ carbonite or Lure to the Dark side). So they are generally able to wait out the Rebels when it comes to leader usage.


All the Rebels have to do to nullify this is to pass turn.


Can you elaborate? I am not following you on this. If they pass, then they can't resolve the mission.
 
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Steve Hope
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I don't have any real concerns as the Rebel about Imperials trying to capture Luke at Dagobah. It requires them to take 2 actions (troop move, then capture) to a system they'd probably never go to otherwise. Plus Jedi Luke is a slippery leader to capture.

As others have said, Mon Mothma is a much more valuable asset to the Rebels.
 
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James Cheng
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Subtrendy Gaming wrote:


All the Rebels have to do to nullify this is to pass turn.


Do you know that once you "PASS", you may never reveal a mission or activate a system by leader? You can still oppose your opponent's effort, but you are essentially PASS for the whole round.

Beside, let's said if you can pass, what's stopping the Imperial to pass as well? Then the whole game grind to a halt.
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jooice ZP
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The only thing you can do once you pass is oppose missions/send leaders to lead troops.
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geoffrey d. hurn
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'Worthless rock'?! My home that is!
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Thomas with Subtrendy
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eunoia wrote:
Subtrendy Gaming wrote:


All the Rebels have to do to nullify this is to pass turn.


Do you know that once you "PASS", you may never reveal a mission or activate a system by leader? You can still oppose your opponent's effort, but you are essentially PASS for the whole round.

Beside, let's said if you can pass, what's stopping the Imperial to pass as well? Then the whole game grind to a halt.


Ahh, I believe you're correct. I've been playing too much War of the Ring lately.

Anyway, theoretically if passing was legal, it would be like WotR, in that you can only pass when you have fewer moves than your opponent. So, like in WotR, Evil has more dice each turn- if Evil has 7 action dice and good only has 4, good can pass whenever they have less unused dice. If at any time a player has equal or more actions left, they are not allowed to pass.

I assume I simply applied this to the leader pool actions. My brain must've been fried at the end of last week. Carry on.
 
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Private Blinky
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KinginAmber wrote:
...Thoughts?


If Luke is indeed in play for the Rebels, then this alteration he is certainly guarantees to get upgraded and gain Yoda with almost zero risk involved. Because the mission is not contestable, he could potentially go last in any single round (even in a 4-player since he is a Rebel General) and not have to worry about any counter-balance action from the Empire. It absolutely does make sense from a gameplay standpoint that there still is some form of risk on gaining the training from Yoda, hence why the mission specifically states Dagobah. It is also semi-thematic if you consider Luke specifically, as he did let himself get willingly captured after becoming a Jedi in RotJ (even captured twice when you consider the events at Jabba's palace).
 
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Jason Sherlock
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KinginAmber wrote:
Because players have seen the movies (and played the game) the imperial player knows Yoda is on Dagobah and knows Luke wants to go there, which gives them a totally out-of-theme motivation to station troops on that otherwise worthless rock to capture him, or dissuade him from going.

This is trivially easy to fix - just change the mission to say 'any remote system'. There's absolutely no game balance reason for Yoda to be on Dagobah. He's not a native of Dagobah (as far as we know) and since the empire are not supposed to know he exists I think there's no reason for that card to follow the plot of 'Empire'.

Thoughts?


A couple variants to stop this gamey behavior by the Imperials would be to add a clause that the new Jedi would be immune to capture for that turn. Since Dagobah is a pretty much a useless planet other than for this mission, it shouldn't affect game play and would keep the Imperials from unrealistically garrisoning a completely nonstrategic location.
 
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Maldus Alver

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The inherent problem what the game is that while following the movie it has to remain flexible enough so as to not follow the story line. IMHO I think Rouge One fits the Star Wars Rebellion game way better than the Star Wars Rebellion game fits the movie.

As for the Yoda thing you could do another Rebel Base where you take one of the prob droid cards and this would be Yoda's house. Or when you draw a planet if you draw a remote planet you put it aside and that is Yoda's refuge other than that If there are no remote planets Yoda's house defaults to Dagobah (as in the movies).
 
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David Makovec
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There is a lot to this.

1) if the Empire wants to invest the action to move troops (even if it's just "troop") to Dagobah to set up a capture, well, there's the opportunity cost to not using that leader to move troops somewhere worthwhile. After all, other than for Seek Yoda, Dagobah is 100% worthless strategically. The Empire is usually pretty tight on leader actions.

2) Luke can always just go last. Or he can feint Seek Yoda and do another mission.

3) send Chewie with him or keep Chewie in reserve to oppose the capture mission.

4) if it's worth it for the Empire to station troops there to prime the pump for a capture mission, then the Rebel player could take one of his/her actions that give them troops in a certain place.

There are enough counters to it that it seems to not be an issue to me, and if the Empire is spending strategic space to set that up, well, there's a cost to it, and it can be easy to counter.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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1sinfutureking wrote:
After all, other than for Seek Yoda, Dagobah is 100% worthless strategically.


Not quite. If you decide you want to build a second Death Star on that side of the galaxy, Dagobah is possibly the best place to do it.
 
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