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https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2016...

I haven't found a really good WWI tank game. Soldiers is fun, but has no tanks. Landships looked to be the ticket, but after playing several games, I found it grew increasingly fiddly. The designer's laissez-faire replies to game questions were also off-putting.

Any recommendations?

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Eddy Sterckx
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Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.
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kevin halloran
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If I read you right then two obvious candidates are Breakthrough:Cambria and Ted Raicer's Royal Tank Corps. Details of both are here on BGG.
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Jon Gautier

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To the Green Fields Beyond
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eddy_sterckx wrote:

Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.


Armored cars have wheels. Tanks have treads.
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I know the subject is about Cambrai, but I always thought To the Green Fields Beyond was more about artillery than about tanks.
 
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jumbit wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:

Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.


Armored cars have wheels. Tanks have treads.

Tires have treads...

Tanks have tracks (as in "Track-laying vehicles").
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It is probably because the first tanks were used more like a super soldier than a tank. Tank combat really was birthed in the Second World War. While I certainly have not played every war game out there, it seems harder to have a solid game based on WWI that focuses specifically on tanks.
 
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Have not played it, but there's this: The Great War: Tank Expansion.
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jumbit wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:

Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.


Armored cars have wheels. Tanks have treads.


That distinction wasn't made back then - picture of the article mentioned

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2016...


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wandererdog wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2016...

I haven't found a really good WWI tank game. Soldiers is fun, but has no tanks. Landships looked to be the ticket, but after playing several games, I found it grew increasingly fiddly. The designer's laissez-faire replies to game questions were also off-putting.

Any recommendations?


I think that fiddly or not, Landships is the best out there (at its scale).
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
jumbit wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:

Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.


Armored cars have wheels. Tanks have treads.


That distinction wasn't made back then - picture of the article mentioned

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2016...


You are referring to what is called today an Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV), which includes everything. The "tank" was a code word designed to cover the development of what was then called a landship. Some clever person suggested a ruse, by which the new vehicles in development would be referred to as 'water carriers'. Since the abbreviation for this was W.C., it was changed to just 'tanks'.

This secret project, from the beginning, relied on the caterpillar track (also called 'tank tread') for movement. Basically an agricultural tractor with a gun. Armored cars followed a different path of development.
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jumbit wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
jumbit wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:

Given that the Italians used armoured cars in the Italo-Turkish war (1911-1912) I think that article is a couple of years late.


Armored cars have wheels. Tanks have treads.


That distinction wasn't made back then - picture of the article mentioned

https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2016...


You are referring to what is called today an Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV), which includes everything. The "tank" was a code word designed to cover the development of what was then called a landship. Some clever person suggested a ruse, by which the new vehicles in development would be referred to as 'water carriers'. Since the abbreviation for this was W.C., it was changed to just 'tanks'.

This secret project, from the beginning, relied on the caterpillar track (also called 'tank tread') for movement. Basically an agricultural tractor with a gun. Armored cars followed a different path of development.


Sure, but my point was that - as can be seen in the article because it uses both words interchangeably - the distinction between (armoured) car and tank wasn't made back then. Talking about the first "tank" is a bit like talking about the first "bomber" - pilots had dropped bombs from planes for a while before it became common to call a specialized type of aircraft a "bomber".




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I wouldn't ever use something from The Guardian as proof of shit.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:

Sure, but my point was that - as can be seen in the article because it uses both words interchangeably - the distinction between (armoured) car and tank wasn't made back then. Talking about the first "tank" is a bit like talking about the first "bomber" - pilots had dropped bombs from planes for a while before it became common to call a specialized type of aircraft a "bomber".


I'm not sure I follow your argument ?
Are you saying that since a journalist who had most likely never seen a tank, (photos were only released later by the military) uses the words armoured car and tank interchangeably, therefore a tank and an armoured car are the same ?
Is this a tank too ?
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/bellamore/bellamore.htm

Just to bring this post back on track (pun intended) did anyone see Tank Men documentary on the BBC ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07tbzgx
It followed the experiences of two officers during the first use of tanks on the Somme. Interesting to see how vulnerable the crew were, even to ordinary machine gun bullets entering the tank.
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Toastiness wrote:

I'm not sure I follow your argument ?
Are you saying that since a journalist who had most likely never seen a tank, (photos were only released later by the military) uses the words armoured car and tank interchangeably, therefore a tank and an armoured car are the same ?


Not for us today, but to the people back then the distinction we make wasn't there, making the anniversary of the first use of a "tank" something different than what people back in 1914 would consider its first use. That's all.

Incidentally, the Belgian army had armoured cars with machineguns and even rotating guns mounted on them by 1914

https://ssl-ds.static.rtbf.be/article/image/OrIn1324x904/4/9...

Is there a good *contemporary* reason to disqualify this for being a tank ?

The threads ? Sorry for not being Anglo-centric.

 
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Westie wrote:
Have not played it, but there's this: The Great War: Tank Expansion.


I've played it. It's fun! No idea if it will please the OP.
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Even in 2016 ordinary citizens (who might be excused) and journalists (who should know better) described any armored fighting vehicle with treads -- including the Bradley or the BMP -- as a tank. Self-propelled artillery frequently gets the same treatment.

Now show somebody a picture from the WWI era depicting a classic armored car with a rotating turret. They will be most likely to describe it as an armored car. Modern wheeled vehicles like the Stryker often cause confusion... I've heard them called tanks but can't recall the use of armored car.

The word "tank" used to describe an armored fighting vehicle is obviously of World War One vintage.
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pete belli wrote:
Even in 2016 ordinary citizens (who might be excused) and journalists (who should know better) described any armored fighting vehicle with treads -- including the Bradley or the BMP -- as a tank. Self-propelled artillery frequently gets the same treatment..


Even on monuments - there's a number of M-10 Wolverines on memorials strewn across the Ardennes - they invariably get referred to as a "char" (tank)

The military versus the ordinary civilian/writer designation of military equipment has been a source of misunderstanding since antiquity.
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For the OP

I'd recommend the following for a WWI tank game:

The Great War: Tank Expansion for a tactical game
Royal Tank Corps for a more strategic tank game
 
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wandererdog wrote:
I haven't found a really good WWI tank game.

Look no further!

Panzer Pranks -- frequently referred to as "the ASL of tank parody games" -- came with a little-known WWI variant. The game included counters for the German A7V and British Mark V.

Talk about a game that can depict any scenario imaginable... you could use the Vino Puro counter to reflect a fine French Bordeaux that was abandoned in No Man's Land to set up a real high-stakes duel between the trenches!



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The first armoured cars date from 1898 or so, but even they are arguably not the first armoured fighting vehicles. Think of the wheeled sheds that mounted battering rams in ancient and medieval times. Or the neck-height "front armour" on Sumerian chariots depicted on the Standard of Ur from about 2600 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur
 
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