Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: A couple of questions about card interactions. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Gabriel Burns
msg tools
1. If you play a unit card from your hand, but it doesn't enter play (e.g. forecast, jail) will it still trigger drill seargent and flagstone garrison?

2. Can plague lab and time runes to an opponent's forecasted card?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Churchill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambs
flag msg tools
designer
"If we knew what we were building, it wouldn't be called research!"
badge
Sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from magic
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In general, if you look at the exact wording of the card, and it works the way the exact wording implies. So:

1) Drill Sergeant and Flagstone Garrison both say "Whenever you play a unit from your hand". That means the unit changes zones from your hand straight onto the battlefield. So neither of those will notice if a unit arrives from anywhere other than your hand, including from the future zone (forecast) or from a Jail or Graveyard.

(Contrast with the green card Blooming Ancient which merely says "Whenever another unit or hero of yours arrives": that will trigger off any of those events.)

2) Hmm... I'm not completely sure about this, actually. But I think so. Forecasted cards are cards with runes on them, and Plague Lab doesn't specifically say "on the battlefield" - just "For any number of cards with runes". So judging purely by the precise wording of the cards, I'd say yes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Hauge
United States
Manassas
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1. It does! Playing the card from hand is a trigger for both Jail and Drill Sergeant, for example. So you get to use Drill Sergeant's effect, but the card doesn't immediately arrive in play. Same for Forecast: you trigger the "play" effect but it doesn't arrive until later.

Interestingly, it looks like there's an FAQ on forecasted units, in that they don't go to Jail. I think this is because Jail puts a card played from hand into Jail instead of it arriving. Since the forecasted unit doesn't immediately arrive, it doesn't meet that second part of the clause, so you don't actually put it in Jail.

2. Absolutely. Time runes are runes too!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Burns
msg tools
CarpeGuitarrem wrote:
...
2. Absolutely. Time runes are runes too!


Well I get that time runes are runes, so for instance you could obviously add one to your own fading card. My question was about whether plague lab can affect forecasted cards since they are not "in play".

I'd love to get an answer to this from an official source or playtester, particularly since I got 2 differing responses (to the first question). If one of you is that, please let me know-- BGG isn't displaying right in my browser, so I can't tell.

alextfish wrote:

...
2) Hmm... I'm not completely sure about this, actually. But I think so. Forecasted cards are cards with runes on them, and Plague Lab doesn't specifically say "on the battlefield" - just "For any number of cards with runes". So judging purely by the precise wording of the cards, I'd say yes.


I don't think codex uses the term "battlefield"... the help text for Fading says the card is not "in play", and I'm wondering if this means "cannot be interacted with except by effects that specifically say otherwise". For instance, obviously they can't be attacked, and presubably they can't be targeted, but plague lab doesn't target. Cards like "Time Spiral" and "Tinkerer" specifically say they can affect forecasted cards, so I'm wondering if they otherwise couldn't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Burns
msg tools
alextfish wrote:
In general, if you look at the exact wording of the card, and it works the way the exact wording implies.


Well, yeah, but the point is that the wording is somewhat ambiguous, particularly given other rulings. For instance:

alextfish wrote:

1) Drill Sergeant and Flagstone Garrison both say "Whenever you play a unit from your hand". That means the unit changes zones from your hand straight onto the battlefield...


but

Codex official rulings for Drill Seargent wrote:

Using a spell or ability to "put a unit into play" from your hand does not count as "playing it from your hand."


so it's clearly not just about moving from your hand to "in play". Furthermore, upon looking back, I notice that

Rules Text for Jail wrote:

Opposing units played from hand go to jail instead of arriving.

so in this case, clearly the cards are being played from hand, or else they wouldn't be going to jail. This is also suggestive of how Forecast works, but not definitive. The over-arching problem in both these questions is that the rules (and rulings) never explicitly clarify (as far as I can tell) what exactly "in play" or "play" (as a verb) means. My personal guess is that cards that don't explicitly say otherwise can only affect cards that are "in play", and that playing a card means paying its (possibly reduced or modified to "free") cost and putting it face up on the table (but not necessarily "in play"), which would make the answers to my questions:

1. yes
2. no

but I'd really like to get an official ruling on this since they can be legitimately understood in multiple ways.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Fletcher
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
http://codexcarddb.com/card/jail

Units with Forecast do not go to Jail

http://codexcarddb.com/card/plague_lab

Does not specify "card in play" so it can add time runes to a Forecasted card.

http://codexcarddb.com/card/drill_sergeant

Drill Sergeant gets a rune when you play a unit from your hand. Playing a card from your hand is one of the actions you can take in your main phase (rulebook), and if that card is a unit, you will get a Drill Sergeant rune regardless of if that unit ends up in play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Reid
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
proxyman wrote:
http://codexcarddb.com/card/plague_lab

Does not specify "card in play" so it can add time runes to a Forecasted card.


This is somewhat annoying, but it's not true. A "forecasted card" is not considered a "card".

Look at the wording for Tinkerer:

"(Exhaust to) add or remove a Time Rune from a card (or forecasted card) with at least one Time Rune."

Forecasted cards can only ever be affected by things that explicitly affect forecasted cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Churchill
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Cambs
flag msg tools
designer
"If we knew what we were building, it wouldn't be called research!"
badge
Sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from magic
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jasonwocky wrote:
proxyman wrote:
http://codexcarddb.com/card/plague_lab

Does not specify "card in play" so it can add time runes to a Forecasted card.


This is somewhat annoying, but it's not true. A "forecasted card" is not considered a "card".

Look at the wording for Tinkerer:

"(Exhaust to) add or remove a Time Rune from a card (or forecasted card) with at least one Time Rune."

Forecasted cards can only ever be affected by things that explicitly affect forecasted cards.
Hm. But if that's true, that means the italics in Tinkerer's rules text don't follow the same rule as Magic's italics, which is that italics never modify the meaning of a card's text. Codex does draw a lot of its concepts, terminology and style from Magic so a divergence like this is a little unusual.

(Magic did use to have the two competing meanings of the word "play", where to put a unit "into play" is definitely not the same thing as "playing" it. The understandable confusion is why Magic eventually renamed the "in play" zone the "battlefield", but you're right that Codec didn't follow suit and does just use "in play".)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Reid
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
alextfish wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:
proxyman wrote:
http://codexcarddb.com/card/plague_lab

Does not specify "card in play" so it can add time runes to a Forecasted card.


This is somewhat annoying, but it's not true. A "forecasted card" is not considered a "card".

Look at the wording for Tinkerer:

"(Exhaust to) add or remove a Time Rune from a card (or forecasted card) with at least one Time Rune."

Forecasted cards can only ever be affected by things that explicitly affect forecasted cards.
Hm. But if that's true, that means the italics in Tinkerer's rules text don't follow the same rule as Magic's italics, which is that italics never modify the meaning of a card's text. Codex does draw a lot of its concepts, terminology and style from Magic so a divergence like this is a little unusual.

(Magic did use to have the two competing meanings of the word "play", where to put a unit "into play" is definitely not the same thing as "playing" it. The understandable confusion is why Magic eventually renamed the "in play" zone the "battlefield", but you're right that Codec didn't follow suit and does just use "in play".)


Sorry, my bad. I italicized the text for emphasis, it's not italicized on the card. I wasn't aware of the MtG convention.

http://codexcarddb.com/card/tinkerer
http://codexcarddb.com/card/time_spiral
http://codexcarddb.com/card/seer

Basically the only things that interact with cards in forecast are in Purple.

AFAIK, if a card isn't in play, it can't be affected or even referenced except explicitly. Chaos Mirror, for example, can't swap the ATK values on e.g. Forecasted units, or Heroes in the Command Zone. Whereas Snapback obviously affects something in the Command Zone.

http://codexcarddb.com/card/chaos_mirror
http://codexcarddb.com/card/snapback
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angelo Pavia
Canada
Maple
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Plague lab's ability does not add runes to forecasted cards as they are not consider in play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sharpo Bject
United States
flag msg tools
payprplayn wrote:

so in this case, clearly the cards are being played from hand, or else they wouldn't be going to jail. This is also suggestive of how Forecast works, but not definitive. The over-arching problem in both these questions is that the rules (and rulings) never explicitly clarify (as far as I can tell) what exactly "in play" or "play" (as a verb) means. My personal guess is that cards that don't explicitly say otherwise can only affect cards that are "in play", and that playing a card means paying its (possibly reduced or modified to "free") cost and putting it face up on the table (but not necessarily "in play"), which would make the answers to my questions:

1. yes
2. no

but I'd really like to get an official ruling on this since they can be legitimately understood in multiple ways.


This post is official in some ways. I wrote a bunch of the existing rulings but did not write a comprehensive rulebook yet. Sorry!

Everything you guessed is correct and you can stop reading right here if you want.

Forecast and Jail both use replacement effects to cause a thing to go somewhere else instead of arriving. The pedantic versions of these abilities might be written like "If an opposing unit played from hand would arrive, instead it goes to the secret jail zone. Then, the last other unit sent to the secret jail zone by this Jail arrives." and "If this unit would arrive from any zone other than the future, instead it is goes to the future and gets X time runes. During your upkeep, remove 1 time rune. When you remove the last, it arrives."

"In play" refers to a specific zone, more or less the way you'd expect. This zone includes all your tech buildings and add-ons, all the heroes that aren't in your command zone, and all the cards that aren't in your codex, discard pile, draw pile, hand, jail, graveyard, future, or trash. Normally you get things into this zone by "playing" them for the cost printed on the card! There are other ways to get things into this zone though, and some things don't end up in this zone when you play them.

Only cards that explicitly say they interact with forecasted cards get to interact with forecasted cards.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fredrik Leander
msg tools
I have a question about Law's Insurance Agent.

I would assume I can put an insurance rune on an opponents unit if I want, and then kill it to claim the gold and draw a card, since there are no limitations in the card text.

Correct or not?




I've tried to find any ruling about this, but maybe everyone else just do as the card says (and place the rune on any unit they want)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tilou
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
frejoh87 wrote:
I have a question about Law's Insurance Agent.

I would assume I can put an insurance rune on an opponents unit if I want, and then kill it to claim the gold and draw a card, since there are no limitations in the card text.

Correct or not?




I've tried to find any ruling about this, but maybe everyone else just do as the card says (and place the rune on any unit they want)


Sure. Correct.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Maisonneuve
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
frejoh87 wrote:
I have a question about Law's Insurance Agent.

I would assume I can put an insurance rune on an opponents unit if I want, and then kill it to claim the gold and draw a card, since there are no limitations in the card text.

Correct or not?




I've tried to find any ruling about this, but maybe everyone else just do as the card says (and place the rune on any unit they want)


If it doesn't say "Your" then it mean anyone's. Thanks for the question btw, I never thought about insuring my opponent units before killing them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fredrik Leander
msg tools
Yeah, I thought of it since there might be situations where you only have units with low cost at your hand and table, but your opponent might have a (damaged) high-cost unit you were about to kill some way during your turn.

Why not cash in during the process?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Maisonneuve
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
frejoh87 wrote:
Yeah, I thought of it since there might be situations where you only have units with low cost at your hand and table, but your opponent might have a (damaged) high-cost unit you were about to kill some way during your turn.

Why not cash in during the process?


Especially that you also draw a card and all that for only 1 gold!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.