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Subject: Doubling Minerals with an Artifact tile rss

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Michał Burzyński
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Hello guys,

We've soaked into Super Motherload with my fiance and we've been playing it recently a lot. Today we had an situation that I couldn't resolve and find clear answer in rulebook.

Let's say that I collect Ruby ($10) tile. I put it on the Pilot stack and that Ruby fullfils the amount of money needed to purchase that Pilot. Can I use the Artifact tile that allows me to copy mineral tile from one of my Pilot Stacks to copy that Ruby before resolving the purchase of Pilot?

On the one hand we can use Artifacts whenever we want, on the other the purchasing of pilots need to be resolved immediately after placing on them the right amount of minerals ($).

I hope that I clearly described my doubts.
Thanks in advance for answering my question.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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When you copy a mineral, you copy it on the same pilot it was already on. You can't copy it and put it on another pilot.

Wow, I just learned something.
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Bjørnar Løseth
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Wildhorn wrote:
When you copy a mineral, you copy it on the same pilot it was already on. You can't copy it and put it on another pilot.


Yes you can. This is the rule-text for the Artifact:

Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot
Stack of your choice.


And for the buy-effect on some cards:

Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.
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Michał Burzyński
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bloseth wrote:
[q="Wildhorn"]

Yes you can. This is the rule-text for the Artifact:

Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on

And for the buy-effect on some cards:

[c]Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.


This rule is about copying minerals using the ability of the card just being bought. What about copying minerals by artifacts?
 
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Paul Saxberg
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burzykovski wrote:
bloseth wrote:
[q="Wildhorn"]

Yes you can. This is the rule-text for the Artifact:

Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on

And for the buy-effect on some cards:

[c]Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.


This rule is about copying minerals using the ability of the card just being bought. What about copying minerals by artifacts?


Bjørnar's correct, and you can do this with artifacts as well (see the bottom left corner of the back of the rulebook for reference.)
 
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Remigiusz Bajor
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bloseth wrote:
Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card
, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.


Does it mean only the tile(s) that "finished" the purchase or all the tiles on the card that gives a duplicate bonus? In example. I have a card that gives a duplicate bonus that costs 20. I have alredy put diamond on it (in previous round). Now I put ruby on it. Can I copy diamond from this card (I can't copy ruby) assuming that I don't have any other diamonds nor rubies on other cards?
 
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Paul Saxberg
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DDPage wrote:
bloseth wrote:
Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card
, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.


Does it mean only the tile(s) that "finished" the purchase or all the tiles on the card that gives a duplicate bonus? In example. I have a card that gives a duplicate bonus that costs 20. I have alredy put diamond on it (in previous round). Now I put ruby on it. Can I copy diamond from this card (I can't copy ruby) assuming that I don't have any other diamonds nor rubies on other cards?


To confirm: the duplication bonus happens after you have *finished* paying for the card. So whatever resources you used to pay for it are gone, and are not there to duplicate - you will have to pick something from a different card, or the bonus will be wasted.
 
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Don Thiess
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Suisun City
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DDPage wrote:
bloseth wrote:
Take a Mineral Tile from the
supply that matches one
already on any of your Pilot
Stacks and add it to a Pilot Stack of your
choice. You cannot duplicate a Mineral Tile
that was used to purchase this card
, nor can
you place the duplicated Mineral Tile on the
card beneath the card showing this Buy
Bonus. If you have no minerals to duplicate,
this bonus is wasted.


Does it mean only the tile(s) that "finished" the purchase or all the tiles on the card that gives a duplicate bonus? In example. I have a card that gives a duplicate bonus that costs 20. I have alredy put diamond on it (in previous round). Now I put ruby on it. Can I copy diamond from this card (I can't copy ruby) assuming that I don't have any other diamonds nor rubies on other cards?


No, both the diamond and ruby in that case are being used to purchase the card and are no longer available to duplicate.
 
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Michał Burzyński
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Still there is no answear to my question.


Let's say that I collect Ruby ($10) tile. I put it on the Pilot stack and that Ruby fullfils the amount of money needed to purchase that Pilot. Can I use the Artifact tile that allows me to copy mineral tile from one of my Pilot Stacks to copy that Ruby before resolving the purchase of Pilot?

On the one hand we can use Artifacts whenever we want, on the other the purchasing of pilots need to be resolved immediately after placing on them the right amount of minerals ($).
 
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Paul Saxberg
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Hey, sorry if I wasn't clear on your question!

Can I use the Artifact tile that allows me to copy mineral tile from one of my Pilot Stacks to copy that Ruby before resolving the purchase of Pilot?

YES. If you are using an Artifact, and not the duplication power on the pilot card you are buying.



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Michał Burzyński
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Thank you for the answer :]

Have a nice day, I'm coming back to drilling!
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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mind_ranger wrote:
Hey, sorry if I wasn't clear on your question!

Can I use the Artifact tile that allows me to copy mineral tile from one of my Pilot Stacks to copy that Ruby before resolving the purchase of Pilot?

YES. If you are using an Artifact, and not the duplication power on the pilot card you are buying.


Where is that interpretation coming from? Is it definite / coming from the designer(s)? I guess it could be ruled either way, but the way I read the rules, it doesn't leave any space for using the artifact after placing minerals but before buying:

Quote:
If at any point, the total money value of the Mineral Tiles on the topmost card on one of your four Pilot Stacks either meets or exceeds the card’s cost (shown in the top right corner of the card), you Buy that card by returning all of the Mineral Tiles on it to the supply and placing the card into your Discard Area. This happens immediately after your current action.


Seems to me, that breaking "placing minerals and buy" into two separate things isn't supported by current manual. Omission?
 
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Pawel Pawlak
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rattkin wrote:
mind_ranger wrote:
Hey, sorry if I wasn't clear on your question!

Can I use the Artifact tile that allows me to copy mineral tile from one of my Pilot Stacks to copy that Ruby before resolving the purchase of Pilot?

YES. If you are using an Artifact, and not the duplication power on the pilot card you are buying.


Where is that interpretation coming from? Is it definite / coming from the designer(s)? I guess it could be ruled either way, but the way I read the rules, it doesn't leave any space for using the artifact after placing minerals but before buying:

Quote:
If at any point, the total money value of the Mineral Tiles on the topmost card on one of your four Pilot Stacks either meets or exceeds the card’s cost (shown in the top right corner of the card), you Buy that card by returning all of the Mineral Tiles on it to the supply and placing the card into your Discard Area. This happens immediately after your current action.


Seems to me, that breaking "placing minerals and buy" into two separate things isn't supported by current manual. Omission?


You've just answered yourself. These are two separate things, that happen one after another - buying happens "immediately after" placing minerals on a pilot card - well, after drill/bomb action to be exact. Placing minerals is a part of drill/bomb action, and that might trigger a buy. So, you finish your drill action, use an artifact, and then proceed with the buy, if applicable.
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Paul Saxberg
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I work for Roxley. I am not the designer, although I did help develop the game.

Pawel is correct.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Allright then. I don't buy this explanation, the rulebook is pretty clear to me, stating that these things happen together, atomically. Otherwise, there's no point in using the word "immediately".

But obviously, if someone from Roxley says, it's an exception, then it's an exception. Although I would recommend updating the manual for this case in future prints.
 
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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rattkin wrote:
Allright then. I don't buy this explanation, the rulebook is pretty clear to me, stating that these things happen together, atomically. Otherwise, there's no point in using the word "immediately".



The word immediately is used because they have to state when it happens. It doesn't happens at the end of your turn. It doesn't happen after all your action. It doesn't happen at the beginning of your next turn. It happens immediately after your action.

But this doesn't mean it is a single one shot thing. There is the collect, then there is the buy.

And if you read the Artifact rule:

Quote:
Artifact Tiles are special tiles collected from the
board that can be discarded at any time during your
turn
(using them is not considered an Action) to gain
the Artifact Bonus shown on the back of the Artifact
Tile.


It means you can use the artifact before the buying. So it is not an exception. It is simply the rules.

 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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That's not really the part I'm referring to. Action and then placing minerals/buying are two separate things. But the rules state "If at any point (...) you Buy that card". Placing minerals after action triggers the buy - in my mind it happens instantly. In other words, you cannot have a state in the game, in which you have minerals on card, and a sum of these minerals >= cost of that card, because the rules say, that once this happens, you buy the card, and remove minerals.

But oh well, that's just arguing for the sake of it. The ruling is the ruling. If there was a question about it in the first place (OP), then chances are, it's not clear, after all.

FWIW I think that copying minerals mid-buy is making the game somewhat easier and the user of this artifact can really gain the tempo, when copying a $10 or $12 in late game. While copying outside of buy makes the game more challenging/strategic - do you place a mineral with an intention to copy, but this placement does not buy you a card a yet? Or do you go for the buy? Or better yet - do you copy a $5 now, since it's on $10 card, or do you wait to use it on $20 card, when there's a chance to copy $12 resting on it. Etc, etc. Copying mid-buy removes that, interesting in my opinion, layer.
 
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Paul Saxberg
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We appreciate the feedback, even when people disagree with us, it always helps us make better games in the future.

You are of course free to house rule it your way in your own play group!
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