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Subject: 2p carnivore rush counter? rss

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Ian Lim
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played a 2p game...

am i missing something or there are really no counter to an early carnivore who beefs up with 2 gray cards?

in a 2 player game.. and as i am thinking i think there is no counter on that.

unlike on the original game.. you can let the carnivore starve to death, and you can strategize well... and find answer to adapt in the ecosystem

on this version it seems carnivore was so strong (who can eat an auto 2 food per population). yea you can hide.. but in their turn they got 1 free specie then 3 cards in hand.. they can still feed their 8 population carnivore with two gray traits every turn with no problem..... and the other player will be stuck with just 4 eating food per turn.

and later the player with huge carnivore can still find a gray trait that can kill the other player's species who are hiding and striving for their survival.

Ive been pondering this but it seems the original was way better than this...

correct me if i am missing something but... i see this is only for casual gamers not suitable for 2 players who wants a strategy game...unlike the original evolution.
 
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Jerry Richard
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Cannibalizing your own cards can be useful, but there are long-term costs if the 2 grey carnivore sticks to the +8 food/turn strategy:

1) The carnivore is leaving food in the pond. An opponent's 2 grey long neck with 7 pop would be able to eat all of that food (4 in the pond [2 per player]) plus 3 extra.

2) Scavengers benefit every time a carnivore attacks, so the opponent could build grey scavengers to benefit from the carnivore: which means while the carnivore gets +8 food/turn, the scavenger gets +4 while only using 4 pop: the carnivore strategy only nets +4 food/turn while using 8 pop.

3) Going for the +8 food/turn strategy limits flexibility: if you want to develop a new species or adapt your carnivore, you may have to starve it.

If your carnivore has a lower population, while you are building additional food engines and/or attacking your opponent...well, that sounds like a pretty decent strategy and a pretty fun game.
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Ian Lim
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the situation i am saying is:

a carnivore with 2 grey cards and an opponent with nothing in board.

so on the player's turn.

he got 1 new specie and 3 cards what will he do?

I am considering passing... because if u play something the carnivore will just eat it.

if you pass: next turn the carnivore will eat 8 food or better. while u only eat 1 food and it is not that good...

if you do something.. let say hide.. = there is a decent chance the carnivore player will get a card that can find you in hiding. and keep devouring you.

i am considering long neck and hiding.. but still he will more likely find a way to eat you again...

so i am saying a carnivore rush is a very strong if you got lucky on early turns... and the other player has a very low chance of climbing up in the race...

 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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dchamp wrote:
am i missing something or there are really no counter to an early carnivore who beefs up with 2 gray cards?

Yes, you're missing something very important! You're missing the other 2 defensive cards which are both hard counters to this situation. You're also missing Defensive Horns which is an effective counter.

dchamp wrote:
unlike on the original game.. you can let the carnivore starve to death, and you can strategize well... and find answer to adapt in the ecosystem

?!!

You can make a Carnivore starve in this version too. Or resort to eating their own Population (which is a very poor strategy).

dchamp wrote:
on this version it seems carnivore was so strong (who can eat an auto 2 food per population). yea you can hide.. but in their turn they got 1 free specie then 3 cards in hand.. they can still feed their 8 population carnivore with two gray traits every turn with no problem..... and the other player will be stuck with just 4 eating food per turn.

I've played this version about 50 times as a 2 player game. Getting 2 points for each of your cards is not a good idea. If you held those cards and never played them them you'd still get 1 point per card! So you're only getting an extra 1 point per card with that strategy.

I'm not sure what I'll do when I play you. It depends on the situation and the cards in my hand. But you can be sure that I'll get more than 1 extra point per card I draw. My score usually ends up being between 100 and 120. Your score with that strategy will be less than 90.
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Cory Dublanko
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I am not understanding why you think that each carnivore gets to eat 2 food PER population. It says clearly in the rulebook that every species eats a single food unless a trait says otherwise. The only reason the carnivores get 2 food per kill is because it feeds the top 2 carnivores of that species. Any other population past the first two have to attack again in order to eat.
 
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Ian Lim
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@cory
i think u misunderstood it

@dominic
thanks for those replies.

the situation is this:
the other player got lucky and able to clean your board with his carnivore (you have nothing left) and sitting with 6 or more population. and have 2 grey cards

on ur turn u got 3 random cards.. lets say you got 1 grey card (unluckily it match the opp's carnive grey card), a scavenger and fertile.. what will u do?

Even though lets say u got 1 grey card that doesnt match the opp's carvivore's grey card.. with some luck he can still get the grey card that match ur grey card and still eat you.
---------------------------

What i am trying to say is that in this version the auto 2 food per population eaten by a carnivore is quite strong.. but of course it will be very weak if the rules says carnivore can only eat 1 meat per population.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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dchamp wrote:
the situation is this:
the other player got lucky and able to clean your board with his carnivore (you have nothing left) and sitting with 6 or more population.

To begin with, I would not call this luck. You don't ever have to put yourself into a position where this is possible. But lets say you were feeling dangerous and took a calculated risk (perhaps too risky) and that he drew exactly the cards he needed...

Then you drew 3 cards that could not protect you. 1 grey card that matches and 2 others. Not a big deal. Just hold the cards and pass. You're half way to geting the 2 defensive cards you need to do the same back to him. This is not a game breaker even if you have to pass for 5 turns in a row, as long as he is eating his own cards. Make sure to time your revenge so that you end the game with cards on the table and he doesn't have enough time to rebuild.

Or after 3 turns you might find you have Horns, Fertle, Long Neck, and 4 or 5 population cards and decide to play out a more peaceful option. It just depends on the cards you draw, how many cards he has in his hand, and how much time is left in the game.

Either way, there are options even after playing overly risky and getting burned.

dchamp wrote:
What i am trying to say is that in this version the auto 2 food per population eaten by a carnivore is quite strong.. but of course it will be very weak if the rules says carnivore can only eat 1 meat per population.

Actually, Carnivores are too strong and there is way too much luck in the game if they only get 1 food per population. Try it out and see!

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Ian Lim
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Thanks domcrap
if that is the case, i think i need more exp then.. maybe i will still need to play more games then...

anyway i am just expressing my first impressions on this game.

i dont mean to brag but in the original evolution i can consider my self above average player based on my win/lose ratio... but in this version of evolution i think i am still a noob then... this version have quite a different feel for me.

maybe ill try more games of this .. then i will say my verdict again of this game..

again thanks all for the replies.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Looking forward to what you think after you've player 3 or 4 two player games.
 
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David S.
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Don't forget too that if your species goes extinct you draw new cards for the amount of trait cards lost on that species. So if you had an extinct species with traits you should have more than 3 cards to use.
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domcrap wrote:

dchamp wrote:
What i am trying to say is that in this version the auto 2 food per population eaten by a carnivore is quite strong.. but of course it will be very weak if the rules says carnivore can only eat 1 meat per population.

Actually, Carnivores are too strong and there is way too much luck in the game if they only get 1 food per population. Try it out and see!



Ok, I'm really confused by this conversation compared to https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1657582/longneck-obbligate-...

In this conversation you imply that each carnivore attack brings two food to a single population. But in the other conversation you state that it would take 9 carnivores to make extinct a population 5 herbivore - implying that each carnivore attack brings one food to two populations (the way we had interpreted the rules.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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schaferuni wrote:
In this conversation you imply that each carnivore attack brings two food to a single population.


I'm not sure why you think I'm implying this. Each Population can only eat 1 food. So when a Carnivore gets 2 food for an attack, it will either feed 2 Populations or if it only has 1 unfed Population then it will only receive 1 food.

If a species has Fat Tissue, it may receive 2 food per Population. Is that what you're thinking? Now I'm the person who is confused!
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Travis Schneider
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domcrap wrote:
dchamp wrote:
am i missing something or there are really no counter to an early carnivore who beefs up with 2 gray cards?

Yes, you're missing something very important! You're missing the other 2 defensive cards which are both hard counters to this situation. You're also missing Defensive Horns which is an effective counter.

dchamp wrote:
unlike on the original game.. you can let the carnivore starve to death, and you can strategize well... and find answer to adapt in the ecosystem

?!!

You can make a Carnivore starve in this version too. Or resort to eating their own Population (which is a very poor strategy).

dchamp wrote:
on this version it seems carnivore was so strong (who can eat an auto 2 food per population). yea you can hide.. but in their turn they got 1 free specie then 3 cards in hand.. they can still feed their 8 population carnivore with two gray traits every turn with no problem..... and the other player will be stuck with just 4 eating food per turn.

I've played this version about 50 times as a 2 player game. Getting 2 points for each of your cards is not a good idea. If you held those cards and never played them them you'd still get 1 point per card! So you're only getting an extra 1 point per card with that strategy.

I'm not sure what I'll do when I play you. It depends on the situation and the cards in my hand. But you can be sure that I'll get more than 1 extra point per card I draw. My score usually ends up being between 100 and 120. Your score with that strategy will be less than 90.


So, I just played two games, and I do not agree that eating your own cards is a negative. As long as you net points (which is always the case since you go up 1 point rather stay static at 1 point per card [and cards are more vulnerable than food]), it's not a bad play to eat your populations, especially if they are traitless or were auto-pop that you get at the beginning of the turn. Although, you could attach traits you do not want, eat the entire species, and then draw a new card or two. And if you combine Fat Tissue with Carnivore, you can rack up even more points quicker since you can hold more food for less cards. Especially if you have a secure Fat Carnivore species with four population, you can drop each card you draw on a turn onto the new population and double their point value, going from gaining 4 points to 8 points, as well as two points from the watering hole. Combine this with a good scavenger on your side, and you can net 10+ points regularly.

Now, some of these plays are definitely risky during the early-mid game, as a large variety of options are available to interact with your opponent and disrupt these actions. But towards the end of the game, when the deck is running thin and you can calculate what defenses are even available, these plays become a lot less risky. Towards the end of my last game, I had a four population Long Neck/Defensive Horns/Speed species (which had been on the table for probably half the game, making one defensive trait change) and a Carnivore/Fat Tissue/Speed, neither of which my opponent could affect on their last turn. In fact, if defensive traits keep getting dealt more to one side over the other, you are forced to eat your own species more and player interaction drops (Which happened during a lot of this last game I played).

Also, eating your own two population trait-less species is never negative points. You get one free population and then add one new population to it, which is 2 points if they survive (they will not). This trait-less species can then eat from the waterhole, securing you the two points for those cards (netting you 1 point since the first population was a free card). If you then consume them with your own carnivore, you now double their initial value of one point (as each population creates two food each), and lose no points since the cards are replaced with food. This play is also strong as it removes one target from your opponent to attempt to attack, making them have to deal with hopefully defensive species. As a result of all of these possible plays, it does feel like building a strong carnivore is a necessity in every game you play as they have the potential to generate more points per card then most other options.

I have only played the game three times and I realize there can be a lot to evaluate. But, I do have a lot of experience with these types of games. I still really enjoy the game, but it does seem certain paths must be taken each game to ensure victory or remain close. I've yet to try playing a game where I skipped a lot of turns, but that seems to be a very bad idea as it gives my opponent free points every turn from the watering hole and a free target from a traitless free species. I must admit, I now really want to play the full Evolution game, as I love the art and theme and I am excited for even more depth.
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