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Subject: Historical variant anyone? rss

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James McHaffey
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Has anyone created a variant with a historical setup? I'm not looking to add rules or complexity, just a more realistic 1936 setup that still allows almost anything to happen but not the current blank and generic starting point.

A few thoughts of the top of my head:

Only UK can start with carriers.
Only Germany can start with armor.
No starting air for France.

West starts with influence in Latin America and Poland.
USSR starts with influence in Spain and 7 actions cards instead of 6.
Axis starts with influence in Austria and Hungary.

I hate to change the map but it's a complete head scratcher that Libya has a POP. The population of Libya was 800,000 in 1936. It was by far the most worthless colony in North Africa. I mean how can Yugoslavia, population 16 million not be worth a POP and Libya is??? It sucks though because correcting this would start a chain reaction of other tweaks that all affect play balance...

Anyway, I've got plenty of other ideas but that is just a starting point...
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Doug DeMoss
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I look at it this way - losing that POP represents a loss of Italian morale. Since the West is essentially never POP-limited, it works out.
 
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Michael Tan
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heinz_guderian wrote:
West starts with influence in Latin America and Poland.
USSR starts with influence in Spain and 7 actions cards instead of 6.
Axis starts with influence in Austria and Hungary.

I like what you're doing here but if you're starting nations with influence, to keep in the spirit of the design, take cards away rather than add more.

The Axis should lose 3 initial action cards since their production now starts at 12 AND they have 2 influence on the map. USSR and West should lose 1 and 2 action cards respectively. They don't lose anymore because the POP and RES gains don't increase their production. This way, you're just essentially making the first few card plays "pre-programmed". At work now but will chime in later with more suggestions for setup.
 
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When I tried this experiment using Craig's East/West/Med/EuroFront II strengths, I found the game tended to follow historical patterns. No big surprise.

- I found that using historical strengths in Poland (using French units) was interesting.

- I found that starting the "Spanish Civil War" in 1936 also added interest when the Great powers could contribute production as foreign aid. I also used historical strengths.

I agree that Libya doesn't have a significant population, so the POP there is to add strategic value as has already been pointed out. But in my opinion, creating national goals is a more-effective way to do this, which I've mentioned before:

Quote:
To the several victories available, add an Axis (Italian) version.

Roman Victory: Control over Tunisia, Malta, Libya, Egypt, Albania, Greece, and Izmir Turkey (maybe).

In the event, the Axis were able to take over all but Malta, Egypt, and Izmir Turkey.

P.S. The proposed Roman Victory would be fairly low in the hierarchy of victory types. I'd put it just one step above 16.5 Economic Hegemony.


A Roman Victory is not immediate. The areas must be controlled by the Axis at the end of the game.


 
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For Germany, there could be three strategic victory levels:

I. Grossdeutschland (GD) Victory: Control Austria, Czechoslovakia, Western Poland, and Switzerland*.

II. Generalplan Ost (GO) Victory: Control Poland, Baltic States, Western Russia and Ukraine: Leningrad, Belorussia, Kiev, and Odessa.

III. Deutschland Uber Alles (DUA) Victory: Poland, Western Russia, Ukraine, and Southern Russia: Leningrad, Belorussia, Bryansk, Kiev, Odessa, Sevastopol, Kharkov, Stalingrad, Kuban, Grozny, Georgia, and Baku.

* Swiss military defense schedule
1936 = 1 CV fortress (use British unit)
1938 = 2 CV fortress
1940 = 3 CV fortress + 2 CV French intervention army (Plan H)
1942 = 4 CV fortress + 2 CV French intervention army, if possible

The Axis faction must be in control of these areas at the end of 1945. Each of these levels would command a certain number of Victory Points. These would not only decide the winner of the game, but could be used as tournament VPs (think of a three-game round robin).
 
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For the Soviet player, Victory Points could be awarded for the countries whose workers have been "liberated from their Capitalist masters."

Victory points are awarded according to their muster value for countries under complete Soviet control. For example, Poland is worth 6 VPs, the Baltic States is worth 1 VP.

Historically, the Soviet Union achieved 15 VPs by this method.
 
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Regarding a Roman Victory in pursuit of national goals, Mussolini gave a speech that outlined them, or at least what threatened them:

Quote:
The bars of this prison are Corsica, Tunisia, Malta, and Cyprus. The guards of this prison are Gibraltar and Suez. Corsica is a pistol pointed at the heart of Italy; Tunisia at Sicily. Malta and Cyprus constitute a threat to all our positions in the eastern and western Mediterranean. Greece, Turkey, and Egypt have been ready to form a chain with Great Britain and to complete the politico-military encirclement of Italy. Thus Greece, Turkey, and Egypt must be considered vital enemies of Italy's expansion ... The aim of Italian policy, which cannot have, and does not have continental objectives of a European territorial nature except Albania, is first of all to break the bars of this prison ... Once the bars are broken, Italian policy can only have one motto—to march to the oceans.

- Benito Mussolini, The March to the Oceans, 1939


Perhaps this is why Mussolini supported the Nationalists in Spain, namely to eventually get them to evict the British out of Gibraltar.

Several of these regions are currently out-of-play, but they don't have to be.

Cyprus - British Crown colony
Corsica - French, under Axis occupation 1940-43

Both these islands Could serve as bases for aircraft and for invasion. I'm not sure why Craig made these inaccessible--perhaps to simplify the map and reduce the ratio of land areas to military units.

 
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Michael Tan
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DieterS wrote:
When I tried this experiment using Craig's East/West/Med/EuroFront II strengths, I found the game tended to follow historical patterns. No big surprise.

Just curious what setup you came up with...
 
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Michael Tan
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heinz_guderian wrote:
Only UK can start with carriers.
Only Germany can start with armor.
No starting air for France.

I'm starting to think that the starting setup should be static even for the base game. We're finding the West is WAY too vulnerable to an Axis blitz if they are allowed to start with a huge navy or air force.

heinz_guderian wrote:
West starts with influence in Latin America and Poland.
USSR starts with influence in Spain and 7 actions cards instead of 6.
Axis starts with influence in Austria and Hungary.

I'd also add West influence in Czechoslovakia and then take away another action card from their initial hand.
 
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Try this out for fun Michael. It might be a good training scenario for friends that are new to the game.

Poland 1939 - Fall Weiss

Polish: 1CV AF, 2CV Fort (Warsaw), 5CV Inf
(all areas must start occupied with at least 1CV)

German: 2CV AF, 4CV Arm, 9CV Inf

Soviet: 4CV AF, 2CV Arm, 11CV Inf

The formula that I used was

4 Inf Divs/CV = 3.912 B $US
2 Arm Divs/CV = 4.482 B $US

Using Craig's EuroFront series, divide the INF strengths by four and armor strengths by two. :-)


 
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Alberto Natta
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Dieter,

Considering that T&T has only 3 zones in Poland, that 2 are technically "Soviets to be", but that if Germany seize Warsaw in 1 round all Poland turns German, that leaves very little for the luck or else.

It's just a Move X blocks in Region Y, and roll. Germans go for Warsaw. Soviets for the rest.

Also it can be misleading as Minors never have mobile troops, thus Germans in this scenario can leave Konigsberg entirely vacant that the Poles would not take it either.
 
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Yeah, that's pretty much what happened in Poland historically. I think France had hoped that Poland would be more formidable, ready to attack Germany from the East should the Germans attack France, and vice versa.

Ok, here's another historical scenario based on WestFront:

France 1940 - Fall Gelb

French: 1CV AF, 2CV Arm, 5CV Inf, 3CV Fort

British: 1CV AF, 3CV Arm, 4CV Inf

Benelux: 1CV Inf, 1CV Fort

Germany: 4CV AF, 5CV Arm, 20CV Inf

Italy: 3CV Inf

Swiss: 3CV Fort

Yes, this is also pretty much of a walkover, but I did say "training scenario" that might help a newcomer more easily understand combat in T&T. Yes, you have to pick appropriate Action Cards to go with it.

 
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