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Squad Leader» Forums » Rules

Subject: Note MM in Armor Listing rss

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Scott B
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Quote:
'All Russian 76L armament hits with L benefits but kills on the 76 column of the TO KILL Table - not 76L.' Note MM


I think MM applies to both AFVs and Ordnance, although it is not listed on the Ordnance table. This represents the poorer quality of Russian AP rounds at the time and lower velocity.

I'm pretty sure Note MM first appears in the third edition of Cross of Iron's Armor Listing and 'The Squad Leader & Cross of Iron Rules Amendments' on page 74 of the Crescendo of Doom rulebook.

I also believe ASL has a reduced TK capacity for the AFV and Ordnance guns, the 76.2mm F-34 and 76.2mm M1936, respectively.

Questions:
* Did AH explain why they reduced the TK number in the rulesbook, the General or other publication? I have not found it documented. I understand why but am looking for documentation from AH.

* Do you think it should be applied to _All_ armaments, AFVs and Ordnance?

thanks,

Scott

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T. Dauphin
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Hi Scott,

I don't see anything in the General, except this formula for penetration in Volume 15 #6, "Design Analysis; Footnotes: Cross of Iron";

General wrote:

Accurate data for gun penetration is hard to find, and details on shell characteristics impossible. If anyone has ballistic coefficients for WWII ammo types, this author would be greatly indebted for the informa- tion. With that, plus muzzle velocity, shell weight, and bore diameter, one can use ballistics tables for fairly accurate penetration computation. Lacking all that, this author used a "short cut"formu1a used by the US Navy in WWII, which runs as follows: (2.2591 105) (d) (w/dJ) 0.75407 (v) 1.50814 to yield penetration in inches, where d is bore diameter in inches, w the weight of the shell in pounds, and v the final velocity in feet per second. Ballistics is a complex field, and before considering the above equation useful, one is urged to get a couple good texts, to appreciate the many limitations and inaccuracies involved in the above.


I found a reference to the 76 M36 that describes it as having a lighter velocity than the others and this may explain why it was left off the adjustment. It looks like the only other 76 exempt from this is the T-43, but I don't know why it would be, as it had the same armament as the T-34.
That's the best I can offer.

Edit: I missed the M-38, but perhaps its being an AA gun has something to do with its exclusion.
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Frank Clarke
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I suspect this would not be documented, since it is a tweak that is too hard to justify. Simply downgrading the F-34 to from 76L to 76 would be the consistent solution, on both To Hit Table and AVF Kill Table.
My guess is that 76L was a mistake, since the T34's F-34 is much closer to the Sherman' M3 L75 than the Sherman's M1 76L. But the fix is halfhearted, merely affecting the Kill Table, and retaining the 76L on the to hit table to compensate for the weak red to hit numbers, as a weird compromise.
So I understand I am not strictly answering the question.

From a rule standpoint it should apply applied to _All_ armaments, AFVs and Ordnance. The ZiS-3 antitank gun has almost exactly the same barrel length as the F-34, so it should have similar penetration with similar ammo.
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Scott B
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Thanks guys,

SQLA applies to both and it sounds reasonable and you both seem to agree. Just wanted to hear other opinions.

Scott
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T. Dauphin
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I left a typo behind and confused my message, I think. The M36 had a higher velocity and therefore better penetration. I couldn't really speak to the other ordnance.
There was also this paragraph from the same General article, which doesn't answer the question, but might be of interest.
General wrote:

There is sure to be hue and cry over the "to kill" tables, as Russian 76mm and German 75mm guns appear similar. But then remember, the game wlll also include American 75mm's and 76mm's in later gammettes, etc. Furthermore, you can't kill until you hit, and in hitting the Russians are at a very serious disadvantage. A Russian 76L will only hit 57% as often as a German 75L gun, given an equal distribution of game ranges (with some emphasis on closer ranges due to the densely packed terrain found in SL/COI). If the Germans are able to hold the fight at longer ranges for a significant period of time, the Russians will suffer much worse than just 57%! In short, the overall probability of getting the other guy must be examined, not just one or two tables that only compose a piece of the procedure.


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Scott B
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Thanks,

I notice both guns were the same TK at the time of writing, so this article was published before the inclusion of note MM in the third edition. It looks like the publisher had a change of heart.

I remember reading, darned if i can find it, that the 76.6L F34 was less powerful partially because of design compromises to fit it into the tank.

Although i think its reasonable to use the 76 TK for all 76L, as a general rule German was more effective.
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