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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Damange/Sanity, Flipping and Timing rss

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Vasili Arkhipov
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Ok, assume a game effect (monster damage, evade, mythos effect)tells you to take 3 face down damage or sanity, and then to flip all face down health or sanity face up. What if the initial face down damage or sanity exceeds your total health or sanity? Do you still flip over all the cards?

For example, assume your total health is 6, and you have 5 damage. You take 3 face down damage, bringing your total damage to 8. Since this exceeds your total health, you discard all the face down damage, retain the face up damage, and draw the wounded card.

BUT, following the same example, what happens with the additional demand that you flip all your damage cards face up? Do you flip all 8 damage cards, discarding the ones that allow you to flip them face down, retain all the face up cards, then grab the wounded card? OR, do you take the damage, discard the face down cards, take the wounded card, and ignore the demand to flip the face down cards (as they have already been discarded)?

I know this is a slightly convoluted question, but it is the difference between being injured, and being injured with a plethora of horrible conditions.
 
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batouto wrote:
Ok, assume a game effect (monster damage, evade, mythos effect)tells you to take 3 face down damage or sanity, and then to flip all face down health or sanity face up. What if the initial face down damage or sanity exceeds your total health or sanity? Do you still flip over all the cards?


Is there such an effect in the game? Take 3 face down damage and then flip up all face down?

Regardless, many of the damage cards say to flip them down once applied, which would happen, resulting in fewer total face up cards when you wiped the face down damage and took the wounded/insane card.
 
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Vasili Arkhipov
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One example is from... SPOILER

Spoiler (click to reveal)
the hound of tindalos. "Suffer 2 face down damage, then flip all of your damage face up."
So I misspoke when I said 3 damage, but the question still remains. (I swear there was a 3 somewhere...)

So, as I see it now (assuming you have 5 out of 6 health) you take one face down damage, take wounded card (because I now have 6/6 damage), discard face down cards, keep face up cards, take one more damage, flip and resolve this one face down card.

In short, instead of flipping (potentially) 7 face down damage, I discard 6, and flip 1 (i.e. the very last card I drew)?
 
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Usually when the game has you take facedown damage and then flip damage faceup, those two instances are separated by a "Then".

So for your example, you'd take the 3 damage facedown. After you've received all the damage, you see that you are past your damage threshold. You would discard all facedown damage and gain the Wounded condition. Then you would finish the rest of the text ("Then flip 3 damage face-up"), but now there are no facedown damage to flip up.

Hope that helps.
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Proper order:

Resolve _all_ damage taken.

Check if damage exceeds or equals HP.

If it does, discard all face down damage and then take a wounded card.



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Vasili Arkhipov
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Thanks for the responses! I understand where I went wrong now. Poor William Yorick, unfortunately, was needlessly mangled after my misapplication of the rules...
 
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Damon Baume
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zenxacred wrote:
Proper order:

Resolve _all_ damage taken.

Check if damage exceeds or equals HP.

If it does, discard all face down damage and then take a wounded card.





I don't know if it's the "proper" order but it's way I've played it. Resolve all damage/horror effects from the test and/or cards and then once all effects are resolved check to see if your damage/horror equals or exceeds your stat. If so, discard facedown damage/horror and take Wounded/Insanity card.
 
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sapper_D wrote:
zenxacred wrote:
Proper order:

Resolve _all_ damage taken.

Check if damage exceeds or equals HP.

If it does, discard all face down damage and then take a wounded card.





I don't know if it's the "proper" order but it's way I've played it. Resolve all damage/horror effects from the test and/or cards and then once all effects are resolved check to see if your damage/horror equals or exceeds your stat. If so, discard facedown damage/horror and take Wounded/Insanity card.


It is the proper order. It says so specifically in the Rules Reference on page 7.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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That timing is possible to sort out the rules but imagine this one:

1: You are told to take 2 facedown Damage and then flip all face-down damage.
2: Taking the 2 Damage puts you 1 below your Health.
3: The first facedown Damage you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.

You are now at your Health threshold. Do you resolve the wounding immediately, or do you flip the other facedown cards first? If the latter option, do you also flip the new one you drew in step 3?

I'm not sure these can be answered by the rulebook alone, but it's an interesting situation to discuss...
 
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Damon Baume
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DancingFool wrote:
sapper_D wrote:
zenxacred wrote:
Proper order:

Resolve _all_ damage taken.

Check if damage exceeds or equals HP.

If it does, discard all face down damage and then take a wounded card.





I don't know if it's the "proper" order but it's way I've played it. Resolve all damage/horror effects from the test and/or cards and then once all effects are resolved check to see if your damage/horror equals or exceeds your stat. If so, discard facedown damage/horror and take Wounded/Insanity card.


It is the proper order. It says so specifically in the Rules Reference on page 7.


If you could cite the rules where it specifically says so I'd appreciate it because I'm not seeing it from my reading of the rules - not that I'm arguing for a different way to play this, just that I don't see it being so clearly stated.
 
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sapper_D wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
sapper_D wrote:
zenxacred wrote:
Proper order:

Resolve _all_ damage taken.

Check if damage exceeds or equals HP.

If it does, discard all face down damage and then take a wounded card.





I don't know if it's the "proper" order but it's way I've played it. Resolve all damage/horror effects from the test and/or cards and then once all effects are resolved check to see if your damage/horror equals or exceeds your stat. If so, discard facedown damage/horror and take Wounded/Insanity card.


It is the proper order. It says so specifically in the Rules Reference on page 7.


If you could cite the rules where it specifically says so I'd appreciate it because I'm not seeing it from my reading of the rules - not that I'm arguing for a different way to play this, just that I don't see it being so clearly stated.




RR page 7 under "wounded": "If an effect cause an investigator to suffer Damage in excess of his health, he suffers all Damage from that effect before becoming Wounded and discarding his facedown Damage."

It says the same thing several paragraphs down under the "insane" section.

 
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Clipper wrote:
That timing is possible to sort out the rules but imagine this one:

1: You are told to take 2 facedown Damage and then flip all face-down damage.
2: Taking the 2 Damage puts you 1 below your Health.
3: The first facedown Damage you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.

You are now at your Health threshold. Do you resolve the wounding immediately, or do you flip the other facedown cards first? If the latter option, do you also flip the new one you drew in step 3?

I'm not sure these can be answered by the rulebook alone, but it's an interesting situation to discuss...


Resolve all first.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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zenxacred wrote:
Resolve all first.

Why?

And do you flip the one you drew after you were told to flip them all?
 
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Because the rules say to resolve it all first. quoted by the others above.

As for the new one you gained, yes you do flip it.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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zenxacred wrote:
Because the rules say to resolve it all first. quoted by the others above.

No, the rules say that you finish gaining the cards, then you follow the wounding rules. You finish gaining cards while you are resolving the single flip. There is no rule that tells us to go back to continue flipping the other cards before we resolve the wounding that was triggered by gaining the card.

Quote:
As for the new one you gained, yes you do flip it.

This idea also has repercussions. It means things get pretty annoying with other instructions. Take the following examples:

Example A:
1: You have 2 facedown Damage and are told to flip 3 Damage.
2: The first card you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.
3: The second card you originally had has no effect.
Q: Do you flip the new one you drew in step 2? To remain consistent with your answer above, I assume you would.

Example B:
1: You have 4 facedown Damage and are told to flip 3 Damage.
2: You shuffle the cards to determine which three you plan to flip.
3: The first card you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.
Q: Do you now have to reshuffle your remaining four facedown cards to find out which two cards you flip? Again, to remain consistent, I think you have to, as the new damage has to be considered as a target of the instruction.

I really dislike having to reshuffle multiple times while flipping a number of Damage cards. I much prefer to select the ones that will be flipped in their random order by shuffling, and then flipping them. Thus, newly gained damage caused by said flipping would not be triggered. Still, perhaps that's just me...

 
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Clipper wrote:
zenxacred wrote:
Because the rules say to resolve it all first. quoted by the others above.

No, the rules say that you finish gaining the cards, then you follow the wounding rules. You finish gaining cards while you are resolving the single flip. There is no rule that tells us to go back to continue flipping the other cards before we resolve the wounding that was triggered by gaining the card.

Quote:
As for the new one you gained, yes you do flip it.

This idea also has repercussions. It means things get pretty annoying with other instructions. Take the following examples:

Example A:
1: You have 2 facedown Damage and are told to flip 3 Damage.
2: The first card you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.
3: The second card you originally had has no effect.
Q: Do you flip the new one you drew in step 2? To remain consistent with your answer above, I assume you would.

Example B:
1: You have 4 facedown Damage and are told to flip 3 Damage.
2: You shuffle the cards to determine which three you plan to flip.
3: The first card you flip tells you to draw an additional facedown Damage.
Q: Do you now have to reshuffle your remaining four facedown cards to find out which two cards you flip? Again, to remain consistent, I think you have to, as the new damage has to be considered as a target of the instruction.

I really dislike having to reshuffle multiple times while flipping a number of Damage cards. I much prefer to select the ones that will be flipped in their random order by shuffling, and then flipping them. Thus, newly gained damage caused by said flipping would not be triggered. Still, perhaps that's just me...





I'll quote it again:

RR page 7 under "wounded": "If an effect cause an investigator to suffer Damage in excess of his health, he suffers all Damage from that effect before becoming Wounded and discarding his facedown Damage."

It says the same thing several paragraphs down under the "insane" section.

The phrase "suffers all damage from that effect before becoming wounded..." means that you resolve all first. You do the steps in order and you resolve them before going to the next part.

Also, regarding your example B: the reason you shuffle the cards is to address the possibility that you've already seen the flip side and to prevent you from deliberately choosing good cards if you know what they say. If you draw a new card, you don't really know what it is so it isn't necessary to shuffle.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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DancingFool wrote:

I'll quote it again:

RR page 7 under "wounded": "If an effect cause an investigator to suffer Damage in excess of his health, he suffers all Damage from that effect before becoming Wounded and discarding his facedown Damage."

Right. But it can also be argues that the effect which caused you to suffer that Damage was simply resolving the flipped card, though. It's not clear whether the effect that caused you to suffer damage is the resolution or the flipping of multiple cards.

Having said that, I agree with you that you should probably resolve the whole thing. I'm just playing devil's advocate as I believe the rules are not actually clear on this, and we could be wrong.

Quote:
Also, regarding your example B: the reason you shuffle the cards is to address the possibility that you've already seen the flip side and to prevent you from deliberately choosing good cards if you know what they say. If you draw a new card, you don't really know what it is so it isn't necessary to shuffle.

The point of the shuffle is also so that any of the cards you have could trigger. If an effect which flips all your cards can flip a card drawn while flipping cards, then an effect which flips a certain number of cards should also be able to flip a card drawn while flipping cards.

If you don't reshuffle again every time you draw a new card while flipping, then you are not being consistent with the all cards case. I guess you also have to reshuffle in the all cards case so that the new card is randomly inserted into the order (as order can be very important).
 
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Sean Houston
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So what about the actual flipping of damage? When an effect tells you to flip all facedown damage/sanity, do you do this all at the same time, or randomize and do it one at a time? This matters because some face-up effects make you take another damage, then flip face-down. So if you do it all at once, you can't end up with a chain, but if you do it one at a time, you could feasibly end up having to flip an extra one over if one flip effect gives you another damage.

Sorry if that was confusing, I couldn't think of any way to describe it that's not convoluted as all hell.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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My preferred method is to randomly create a stack of the appropriate cards, then flip cards from that stack until it's empty. Newly drawn cards will not affect this stack. This minimises the number of reshuffles of the rest of the cards throughout the effect (almost eliminating them).

The only instruction this causes issue with is the "Flip 1 other Damage/Horror" cards. I treat it as randomly adding one additional card of the appropriate type to the top of the stack of cards to resolve, without it being one I already resolved during this event. This also means that in a "Flip all cards" scenario, the "Flip 1 other" instruction won't do anything (unless you gained the appropriate card earlier in the flipping sequence).

That minor issue happens extremely rarely, so I definitely prefer that way.

I can also see the consistency in keeping the shuffled stack of cards and simply drawing the correct number. With this method, any newly drawn cards will need to be shuffled into the stack, which is the part I dislike, but it also has a consistency to itself. I guess this method would also suffer from the above issue for my approach, though.

There is one final method that I would never consider using, which is to shuffle before each draw. This means you can draw 3 Horror even if you've only suffered 1 so far (you would draw it 3 times), so I wouldn't recommend it, but it would also be fully consistent when drawing cards and it doesn't suffer from the issue of the other techniques.

There certainly could be more techniques which maintain internal consistency too...
 
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