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Subject: Rationing and Shuffling (how to fix the glitch) rss

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Spyros
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You may have come across this glitch: UK plays Rationing in round 1, in round 2 they use Enigma and then put that card at the Bottom of their draw deck using Rationing, round 3: they relocate resources (and so they shuffle their deck), in round 4 they play Enigma again (!) (because they got the Enigma back after they shuffled their deck), and similar things (such as even more occurrences of Enigma!) can happen again in the next game rounds. This is an example (it doesn't have to happen exactly like that) of one of the possible scenarios where the glitch of Rationing and Shuffling is used to play a card (such as a Enigma) many times, especially at the beginning of the game. Ian has already posted that he didn't like the effect that shuffling has on cards such as Rationing and he would wish to find a way around it.

Why we shuffle the deck after relocating resources: So that we don't know what cards are coming up next (as a result of viewing the cards of our draw deck whilst looking for a specific basic card (e.g. Land Battle) when relocating resources). Rationing existed in the base game but Shuffling was not there from the beginning, it was only introduced as an implication of Relocating resources. Ideally, if there is a 7th person (e.g. an observer) they would take the card the person is looking for from the draw deck and give it to the player, so no shuffling would be needed as the player would not know which are the next cards in his draw deck. Alternatively, if the game was an electronic one, the computer would give to the player one of the remaining Land Battle cards from their draw deck without re-ordering the deck. Thus, the purpose of shuffling is not to re-ordering the whole deck but only to prevent giving advantage to the player who would otherwise explicitly know what cards they are about to draw in the next rounds.

The concept of the Rationing card: We consider a card to be important and thus we discard another card from our hand so that we can put this card back to our draw deck in order to be able to use it again in the future. However, it explicitly says that it goes to the bottom of our draw deck. In other words, the price is that we will have to wait until we go through our whole deck until we can play this card again. Of course if we are within the last rounds of the game, we may not have to wait for long (if our draw deck doesn't have that many cards left). Nevertheless, if we are still at the beginning of the game, then we will have to wait for several rounds to first go through the rest of our deck before we can draw (and play) the card that we "saved" via Rationing. Therefore it would be impossible to play Enigma twice by round 4.

Why this is a glitch: Exactly because it breaks the concept of Rationing and shuffling (explained above); it allows re-ordering the deck and moving cards which were supposed to permanently stay at the bottom of the draw deck to a better deck position. In fact there are many people who are aware of this glitch and reshuffle the cards on purpose (by Relocating resources) in order to take advantage of it and play some strong cards multiple times at the beginning of the game. All this would have been impossible without shuffling if there was an observer to give to the player the requested card without having to shuffle. Groups where this glitch is not used are fine, but other groups where this glitch is constantly used need a solution.

The solution: There has to be distinction between the part of the deck which consists of the cards which have not been drawn at all yet (let's call this "primary deck"; in fact your whole deck is your primary deck before the use of Rationing and the order of the cards is unknown), and the part of the deck which consists of the cards which were placed at the bottom of the deck as a result of using the Rationing card (let's call this "bottom deck") in order to use these cards again in the future. The distinction can become obvious by either placing a paper marker between these cards, or by rotating the "bottom deck" cards by 90 degrees in order to distinguish them from the rest of the deck (proposed by Andrzej Fiett). Therefore, your "whole deck" consists of the "primary deck" and the "bottom deck" and so you first have to go through all the cards of your "primary deck" before you start drawing cards from your "bottom deck".

Why and how this is a fix: If the player relocates resources, then they have to get the card they are looking for from their primary deck, and then (only) shuffle the cards of the primary deck. The order of the cards of the bottom deck remains unchanged. This time we use correctly the concept of Shuffling (i.e. the player doesn't know what cards are coming up next) and relocating resources (i.e. get one of the basic cards, which has nothing to do with re-ordering the deck), without taking advantage of the glitch (i.e. this time the cards which were placed at the bottom of the deck due to Rationing, they are still located at the bottom of the deck!).
Alternatively, if there is no such a desired basic card (e.g. Land Battle) in the Primary deck anymore, the player can take it from the bottom deck (if there is one there), which actually doesn't have to be shuffled because the order of the cards should remain the same as the exact order in which they were put there because of Rationing (and it is anyway already known to the player). Furthermore, for the same reason, by the time that the deck consists entirely of the "bottom deck" , if the player relocates resources to take a Land Battle from it, then the deck doesn't have to be shuffled anymore.

To summarise, relocate resources and shuffling still occur in the same way but all we have to do is to ensure that the cards which were rationed at the bottom of the deck still stay there even after shuffling so that the concept of Rationing is not broken. Same thing happens to other cards such as Rosie the Riveter, Pact of Steel, etc.

Ian (the game designer) has also approved this solution/fix; it's recommended in order to retain a fair game-balance (otherwise the play balance changes from 50/50 to the favour of the allies).

Edit: This thread discusses how to fix the side effects of Shuffling on Rationing (and similar cards) so that we retain a fair play-balance. The purpose of this thread is not a) to discuss if Rationing is overpowered by design b) how to make a card less (or more) powerful c) if the power of some cards deserves to be reduced (or increased).
The purpose of this thread is to fix the undesired not-meant-to-exist effect of Shuffling on Rationing so that the card works exactly the way it was designed to work without breaking its core concepts or deviating from the rules (such as by using side ways to give additional reward/power to cards instead of "penalties").
If you want to discuss whether Rationing is overpowered then please go to this thread.
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Gary
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This could also be implemented by having the player announce that they are using a card by reallocating resources without going through their deck to remove it.

They just act as if they had played the card and then make a note that they owe the discard deck one card of the type just played. The next time they draw one of those cards they put it straight into the discard and draw another card instead.

We don't have any problems with players knowing what type of cards are left in their deck, nor with players 'forgetting' to discard the card, and already have paper to hand as we keep score on paper (to check that everyone remembers to score).

What we would like to avoid is having more piles of cards on the table. Once players start to get status and response cards on the table, we do start to run out of table real estate.

Although I do like the idea of getting a neutral seventh person along to help game-play. I'm not sure my children would welcome being called in to the games-room just so they can look through and remove a card from a deck - all the more reason to do it.... arrrh

 
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Witch Lord
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To some it may be a glitch, to others a legitimate strategy
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Andrzej Fiett
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jellynut wrote:
What we would like to avoid is having more piles of cards on the table.

How about rotating "bottom deck" cards by 90 degrees?
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James Hamilton
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Interesting thought.

The same issue can happen to some extent with other cards like Rosie the Riveter.
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Spyros
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Witch Lord wrote:
To some it may be a glitch, to others a legitimate strategy


Yes, I agree that it's smart to find (and use) this glitch by yourself, but it is not in the spirit of the game as shuffling doesn't exist for that reason (see above for the concepts of Rationing and shuffling) and thus it has to be fixed

If there was a magic glitch that if Germany plays a "Land Battle" in round 1 then they receive 300 more cards, then of course it would be smart to find it, but again it would have to be fixed as it would not be in the spirit of the game; it would have been abuse of the the rules and it would change the game-balance.

We don't play the game to earn money, just for entertainment, thus the more balanced it is, the better
 
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Andy44 wrote:
jellynut wrote:
What we would like to avoid is having more piles of cards on the table.

How about rotating "bottom deck" cards by 90 degrees?


Yes, excellent idea , same thing I added your idea above

All we have to do (i.e. the main concept here) is to distinguish between the two parts of the deck (which can be done in various ways).
 
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Hammy wrote:
Interesting thought.

The same issue can happen to some extent with other cards like Rosie the Riveter.


Exactly
 
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Peter Bakija
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Yeah, I'm not sure this is so much a "glitch" as "something that happened along the way in the development of the game". I mean, that being said, this is as good a way as any to deal with the issue that comes up. But I don't now that it is that big of an issue in the first place.

Like, it isn't as if Ian didn't know this was going to happen when he put Reallocate Resources in the game, and then it turned out to be a surprise or something.

If there is a flaw in all of this, it is that recursion in this game was a bad idea in the first place. All of the cards that you you play cards again multiple times tend to have overpowered results. Getting to reshuffle Enigma back into your deck by going to get a Build Army has always struck me as much less of an issue than, say, getting to replay Bomber Command 5 times in a row by intentionally running your deck out and continuing to put it on the bottom of the deck with Rationing.
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James Hamilton
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bakija wrote:
Getting to reshuffle Enigma back into your deck by going to get a Build Army has always struck me as much less of an issue than, say, getting to replay Bomber Command 5 times in a row by intentionally running your deck out and continuing to put it on the bottom of the deck with Rationing.


Indeed, that is a bit of a problem IMO.
 
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Simon Croquet
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Spyros_UCL wrote:
Witch Lord wrote:
To some it may be a glitch, to others a legitimate strategy


Yes, I agree that it's smart to find (and use) this glitch by yourself, but it is not in the spirit of the game as shuffling doesn't exist for that reason (see above for the concepts of Rationing and shuffling) and thus it has to be fixed

If there was a magic glitch that if Germany plays a "Land Battle" in round 1 then they receive 300 more cards, then of course it would be smart to find it, but again it would have to be fixed as it would not be in the spirit of the game; it would have been abuse of the the rules and it would change the game-balance.

We don't play the game to earn money, just for entertainment, thus the more balanced it is, the better


I do not understand your last point: whether we play the game for a living or for entertainment, everybody likes a good balanced game. If I was a professional Quartermaster General (which I am sadly not), I would be even more eager to fix a balance issue in the game.

I have more issues with recursion in general, rather than this rationing-shuffling thing.
Your solution seems decent though, but I don't think that I will use it: lack of space on the table and there are enough rules to teach and watch for to add a fix to something that never happened to be a problem in my games (if that changes, I'll definitely consider it).
 
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bakija wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure this is so much a "glitch" as "something that happened along the way in the development of the game". I mean, that being said, this is as good a way as any to deal with the issue that comes up. But I don't now that it is that big of an issue in the first place.

Like, it isn't as if Ian didn't know this was going to happen when he put Reallocate Resources in the game, and then it turned out to be a surprise or something.

If there is a flaw in all of this, it is that recursion in this game was a bad idea in the first place. All of the cards that you you play cards again multiple times tend to have overpowered results. Getting to reshuffle Enigma back into your deck by going to get a Build Army has always struck me as much less of an issue than, say, getting to replay Bomber Command 5 times in a row by intentionally running your deck out and continuing to put it on the bottom of the deck with Rationing.


Yes, he knew about it, but he had posted that he doesn't like the effect of shuffling on Rationing and at that time he hadn't found a way around it, yet. I think it's 100% clear that "relocate resources" exists to make it possible to get the (basic) card you are looking for. Shuffling is a result of the game not being an electronic one. So its effect on Rationing is a non-desired one.

Indeed, for most groups it's not a big issue at all and maybe this fix makes no change to them as they will never experience such issues. But there are groups where this is a big issue as the glitch is used on purpose, and these groups need the fix. I am an administrator of a 8,000+ members board-games-club and I have observed/played many QMG games. Without the glitch, the allies win (approximately) 50% of the games , and the axis the other 50%. On the other hand, I have observed cases where the glitch is actively used and we have 60%/40% in favour of the allies. When the glitch is fixed, we go back to 50%/50%.

The game has been play-tested many times by Ian to ensure that it has a fair balance. If a glitch makes it unbalanced in favour of the Allies, than I prefer to stick to the original rules, concepts, game mechanics (the "relocate resources" concept has nothing to do with re-ordering the cards), and the spirit of the game so that it remains balanced. This fix merely respects the rules of the game so that they are not abused due to lack of having a machine which would do these things automatically if it was an electronic game.
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Shoum wrote:
Spyros_UCL wrote:
Witch Lord wrote:
To some it may be a glitch, to others a legitimate strategy


Yes, I agree that it's smart to find (and use) this glitch by yourself, but it is not in the spirit of the game as shuffling doesn't exist for that reason (see above for the concepts of Rationing and shuffling) and thus it has to be fixed

If there was a magic glitch that if Germany plays a "Land Battle" in round 1 then they receive 300 more cards, then of course it would be smart to find it, but again it would have to be fixed as it would not be in the spirit of the game; it would have been abuse of the the rules and it would change the game-balance.

We don't play the game to earn money, just for entertainment, thus the more balanced it is, the better


I do not understand your last point: whether we play the game for a living or for entertainment, everybody likes a good balanced game. If I was a professional Quartermaster General (which I am sadly not), I would be even more eager to fix a balance issue in the game.

I have more issues with recursion in general, rather than this rationing-shuffling thing.
Your solution seems decent though, but I don't think that I will use it: lack of space on the table and there are enough rules to teach and watch for to add a fix to something that never happened to be a problem in my games (if that changes, I'll definitely consider it).


Well it doesn't take extra space, you may just rotate by 90 degrees the cards that you put at the bottom of your draw deck due to rationing and no extra rules are needed, I think: just if they use rationing you tell them to rotate the cards at the bottom of the deck.

Indeed, for most groups this fix will make no change, especially if you have new players and you teach them the game, I don't think they will ever use the glitch. This fix is actually helpful to groups of very experienced players who actively and constantly use the glitch to shift the balance of the game in favour of the allies. (and so the fix is used to bring the balance back to normal)
 
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bakija wrote:
Getting to reshuffle Enigma back into your deck by going to get a Build Army has always struck me as much less of an issue than, say, getting to replay Bomber Command 5 times in a row by intentionally running your deck out and continuing to put it on the bottom of the deck with Rationing.


Of course, the fix is for all the cards, not just for Enigma.

Now, if you intentionally run through all of your deck to play Bomber Command (or another card, such as Enigma) multiple times, then the price is that you are burning lots of cards, and this is part of the game.

Now imagine that someone would use Bomber Command 5 times without running their decks, just because they re-shuffled their decks. That would be a huge problem. That's why this fix should be used to avoid such problems. Furthermore, note that without the fix, that would occur 5 times at the end of the game plus an additional 3-4 times at the beginning of the game (which would otherwise be impossible if there was no shuffling), whilst after the fix is applied, these 5 times at least can only happen at the end of the game, respecting the original concept of the Rationing card.

 
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Hammy wrote:
bakija wrote:
Getting to reshuffle Enigma back into your deck by going to get a Build Army has always struck me as much less of an issue than, say, getting to replay Bomber Command 5 times in a row by intentionally running your deck out and continuing to put it on the bottom of the deck with Rationing.


Indeed, that is a bit of a problem IMO.



I understand what you guys are saying about the combo of "Rationing" and "Bomber Command". You question whether that combo is overpowered. I guess that would be a very good topic for discussion in another thread. Furthermore you could also question whether Rationing should exist as a card in general. Nevertheless, this thread is more concerned on following the original rules of the game without breaking the original concepts of the cards using glitches by doing things (e.g. shuffling) which were introduced for different purposes. Hence this thread explained the solution to the glitch.

Finally, if you believe that Rationing + Bomber Command is a deadly combo because the Bomber Command can be played 5 times at the end of the game, then you probably also agree with the solution stated in this thread as otherwise you could also have 3-4 additional "Bomber Commands" being played at the early rounds of the game due to the use of this glitch of shuffling and Rationing.
 
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I certainly approve (and actively make use) of house rules as long as everybody at the table agrees that they make the game more fun for them.

That being said, Alternate Histories comes with a number of Replacement cards, two of which had their mechanics changed for balancing reasons. Rationing wasn't one of them.

I interpret this to mean that Ian probably does not believe that Rationing needs any changes. Personally, I like it the way it is as well (including its dynamics with the Reallocate Resources rule).

Besides, at least in AH the decks are so massive that the "glitch" ends up having a statistically small chance of actually happening. Considering that it costs you 3 cards to do a Reallocate Resources, it may be actually be an appropriate cost if you are doing it for no other reason than hoping to trigger the "glitch".

Just my 2 cents though.
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Witch Lord wrote:
I certainly approve (and actively make use) of house rules as long as everybody at the table agrees that they make the game more fun for them.

That being said, Alternate Histories comes with a number of Replacement cards, two of which had their mechanics changed for balancing reasons. Rationing wasn't one of them.

I interpret this to mean that Ian probably does not believe that Rationing needs any changes. Personally, I like it the way it is as well (including its dynamics with the Reallocate Resources rule).

Besides, at least in AH the decks are so massive that the "glitch" ends up having a statistically small chance of actually happening. Considering that it costs you 3 cards to do a Reallocate Resources, it may be actually be an appropriate cost if you are doing it for no other reason than hoping to trigger the "glitch".

Just my 2 cents though.


Thanks for your contribution.

Yeah, Ian didn't replace Rationing which means that indeed he doesn't think that Rationing on its own is too overpowered to change the mechanics of the card (but as I said above that would be more suitable to another thread asking whether Rationing is overpowered and/or if Rationing+Bomber Command is overpowered). But this is not relevant to its non-desired effect by Shuffling (which he had said from the beginning that he didn't like). Specifically he had said:
IanBrody wrote:

I do not like the effect on Rationing



There are some ppl who like to burn 4+ cards per round so that they run through their deck and they can use Bomber Command 8 times (1 at the beginning plus 7 more times because of Rationing during the last 7 rounds). So for people who use this strategy we have a few remarks:
#1) with the glitch it will happen even more times so 8+ times in total
#2) since they burn 4 cards per round, they would have no problem burning 3 cards for relocating resources (and later even burning an extra card).
#3) There is no statistically small chance for the glitch to happen. The opposite. The chance is very high. Specifically, unless after the shuffling the card in question is placed again at the very bottom of the deck (very unlikely), it will end up in a better position and thus it will be played earlier than expected. So the glitch will occur. And then Rationing will be used and it the glitch will occur again. Therefore, Bomber Command can be played 8 times (1 at the beginning + 7 at the end) + 3/4 extra intermediate times (due to glitch) = 11/12 times in total (half the UK's rounds, but costing 48 discards to an opponent as well as other negative points for the opponent not being able to discard during the discard step. Notably, Italy only has 49 cards in total after the initial 5 discards).
#4) Regardless of whether the above strategy is overpowered or weak (different discussion which is not the aim of this thread), let's stick to the fact the these extra 3-4 intermediate occurrences of the card would have not happened if there was no shuffling. Shuffling exists to make the next cards unknown because we look through our deck when there is no 7th person to do it for us, it doesn't exist to give us a free better position to our Rationed cards. Specifically, Ian had said:
IanBrody wrote:

I couldn't let folks just start picking up their draw deck and looking through it


To conclude, that's why this fix is a replacement for not having a 7th person (so that the original rules and concepts are not broken and the game balance remains the same instead of changing in favour of the allies; this fix of the glitch is approved by Ian, it improves the play balance).
IanBrody wrote:

improves the play balance
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Mike Anastasia
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I'm mostly going to stay out of this thread because I strongly disagree with the premise that this is a glitch, but I can't resist pointing out one flaw I perceive in the initial argument:

In a computer implementation (or a human-moderated implementation) the moderator still has to shuffle during reallocate resources. Reason being that if they do not, which Land Battle (or whatever) they retrieve makes a huge difference unless you follow it up with a shuffle to cause the remaining Land Battles (or whatever) to be randomly distributed throughout what's left of the deck.

Also also, another perfectly valid use of Rationing is to make sure your last Land Battle remains in your deck so that you retain the ability to Land Battle. The idea that the Rationed section of your deck cannot be searched with Reallocate Resources introduces a new bug that I personally would find unacceptable.
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MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
I'm mostly going to stay out of this thread because I strongly disagree with the premise that this is a glitch, but I can't resist pointing out one flaw I perceive in the initial argument:
.


You are welcomed to stay with us

MyNameIsFourteen wrote:

In a computer implementation (or a human-moderated implementation) the moderator still has to shuffle during reallocate resources. Reason being that if they do not, which Land Battle (or whatever) they retrieve makes a huge difference unless you follow it up with a shuffle to cause the remaining Land Battles (or whatever) to be randomly distributed throughout what's left of the deck.


In a computer implementation or human-moderated implementation, the moderator wouldn't have to shuffle. That's because the unknown deck remains unknown after drawing the requested card. It doesn't matter where the card was drawn from, to the player it shouldn't matter at all. The probability that there are 4 same cards in a row in the pre-shuffled deck is the same as the probability of having 4 same cards in a row in the post-shuffled deck.

MyNameIsFourteen wrote:

Also also, another perfectly valid use of Rationing is to make sure your last Land Battle remains in your deck so that you retain the ability to Land Battle.


Yes, that's a perfectly valid use of Rationing indeed (in accordance with the original concept of the card), I don't see how it contradicts with the solution provided in this thread. The "price" that you pay for rationing is that you know that this card goes at the bottom of the deck and so you have to run through your deck until you can use that card again. If you only have a last Land Battle card which is located at the bottom of your deck (because it was rationed) then you can use relocate of resources and get it. The fix doesn't stop you at all. Of course due to the nature of Rationing, it means that you have to pay 3 cards to take that card now if you don't want to wait to run through your deck.

MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
The idea that the Rationed section of your deck cannot be searched with Reallocate Resources introduces a new bug that I personally would find unacceptable.


No, there is no such a bug. The rationed section of the deck can definitely be searched (and in fact it doesn't even have to be re-shuffled as the order of these cards is already known to the player). Not sure if people have understood the solution to the glitch. It adds no new rules at all, neither changes anything, it's not a house rules or a variation. In fact it sticks to the game rules to respect the concepts of Rationing and Shuffling. All it does is that you rotate the cards of the rationed section of the deck by 90 degrees so that you distinguish them from the rest of the deck and that you don't have to shuffle these cards to a better position if you relocate resources (so you don't give extra free advantage to the allies). There is only a single deck , not two decks. You just distinguish its sections so that you don't give a free better position to the card which is supposed to stay at the bottom of the deck (exactly as Rationing instructs).
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Nicholas Avallone
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I typically hear that QG favors the Allies slightly, so the idea that Reallocate Resources has this added benefit for only the Allies makes Spyros' house-rule very attractive.

I'm also a believer that shuffling in QG is only a method to make sure a player doesn't have foreknowledge of his deck -- mixing up the cards is merely a side-effect.

Note that prior to implementation of Reallocate Resources rules with AM, there were only two occasions that provided an opportunity to shuffle: playing either Production Initiative or Guns and Butter -- both German cards -- so it was never an issue before AM.
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Smolin wrote:
I typically hear that QG favors the Allies slightly, so the idea that Reallocate Resources has this added benefit for only the Allies makes Spyros' house-rule very attractive.

I'm also a believer that shuffling in QG is only a method to make sure a player doesn't have foreknowledge of his deck -- mixing up the cards is merely a side-effect.

Note that prior to implementation of Reallocate Resources rules with AM, there were only two occasions that provided an opportunity to shuffle: playing either Production Initiative or Guns and Butter -- both German cards -- so it was never an issue before AM.


Exactly, well-said

Shuffling still stays the same but all we have to do is to ensure that the cards which were rationed at the bottom of the deck still stay there even after shuffling so that the concept of Rationing is not broken.
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Smolin wrote:
I typically hear that QG favors the Allies slightly, so the idea that Reallocate Resources has this added benefit for only the Allies makes Spyros' house-rule very attractive.
Not just the Allies, although the Allies feel it much more strongly. The German card Superior Planning is a fairly weak card. In my eye, its only redeeming quality is the option to Reallocate Resources to shuffle away a few bad cards.
 
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Spyros_UCL wrote:
You are welcomed to stay with us
Careful what you wish for.
Spyros_UCL wrote:
In a computer implementation or human-moderated implementation, the moderator wouldn't have to shuffle. That's because the unknown deck remains unknown after drawing the requested card. It doesn't matter where the card was drawn from, to the player it shouldn't matter at all. The probability that there are 4 same cards in a row in the pre-shuffled deck is the same as the probability of having 4 same cards in a row in the post-shuffled deck.
The moderator absolutely has to shuffle. Before Reallocate Resources I have N Land Battles that are uniformly randomly distributed in my deck. (they might all be together or not, but that doesn't matter because it is unknown) After the Reallocate I should have N-1 Land Battles that are uniformly randomly distributed in my deck. A shuffle is the only way to preserve this property. If you don't shuffle, the moderator needs a rule for which of the N Land Battles he will retrieve (topmost? bottommost? random?) and the content of that rule impacts the choice of reallocating or not. This logic grows even more holes if you have a section of deck at the bottom that is immobile due to your fix.

Spyros_UCL wrote:
MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
The idea that the Rationed section of your deck cannot be searched with Reallocate Resources introduces a new bug that I personally would find unacceptable.
No, there is no such a bug. The rationed section of the deck can definitely be searched (and in fact it doesn't even have to be re-shuffled as the order of these cards is already known to the player).
Granted.

Spyros_UCL wrote:
Not sure if people have understood the solution to the glitch. It adds no new rules at all, neither changes anything, it's not a house rules or a variation.
I did misunderstand it slightly and I understand it better now, but the notion that it is not a house rule or variation is...absurd. It's certainly not RAW, so how can it be anything other than a variation.

Also for consistency's sake this 'fix' should probably also apply to the bottom of the US deck for Rosie the Riveter, the top of the German deck for Superior Planning, the top of the Italian deck for Pact Of Steel, and the top of all the Axis decks for Giuliani, Cappellini, and Torelli. Of course, in the case of Rosie the Riveter in particular, this rule would become an advantage for the USA rather than a bugfix (it prevents unwanted cards from coming up again). I guess the point I'm aiming towards is that QMG is a card game. Some tricks related to manipulating the decks of cards are inevitable. Deciding which ones are OK and which ones are not is a heck of a slippery slope.
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Spyros_UCL wrote:
Of course, the fix is for all the cards, not just for Enigma.


Oh, I know. I play this game *a lot*. Like, don't get me wrong here--any instances of recursion in Quartermaster General tends to be problematic. To the point that Flexible Resources got changed into a single use event in Alternate Histories (see: the US playing Firestorm Bombers every turn for the last 4 turns of the game; even if they pay 4VP per recursion, they are still coming out significantly ahead). But of all the recursion issues in the game, getting to reshuffle a few cards back into your deck from the bottom due to a reallocate resources after using Rationing a few times is kind of the smallest one. It is still heavily random (reshuffling those cards still might have them end up on the bottom. Or put them near the top when you get Submarined and they get discarded when they would have been better off at the bottom of the deck).

Quote:
Now, if you intentionally run through all of your deck to play Bomber Command (or another card, such as Enigma) multiple times, then the price is that you are burning lots of cards, and this is part of the game.


Well, you say "this is part of the game" as if that makes it a balanced thing. You could say the exact same thing about reshuffling after Rationing. This is part of the game.

Again, don't get me wrong here. I think recursion in Quartermaster General is one of the biggest flaws in the game. As it takes what was designed to be a limited resources (i.e. you have 1 or 2 of each unique card in the deck) and amplifies them. Which I suspect is more of a power swing than originally envisioned. And, yes, reallocate resources makes it worse in a few instances (Rationing, Rosie the Riveter).

Quote:
Now imagine that someone would use Bomber Command 5 times without running their decks, just because they re-shuffled their decks.


There is no way to do that without running out of cards--each reallocate resources depletes your deck by 4 cards. I mean, I realize that it is an example, but still, not one that can happen.

Rationing is probably more powerful than it should be, in general. Reallocate resources certainly adds to that, but I don't know that it adds so much that it is necessary to add an extra rule to fix it. In many, many games of QmG, I have seen a Rationing/reallocate resources reshuffle have a significant impact on the game very few times--maybe once someone got to replay Enigma early when it had an impact; maybe once they got back, like, Ledo and Burma Roads early. On the other hand, I have seen non reshuffled recursion of Bomber Command (run out your deck, put Bomber Command on the bottom of your deck with Rationing, play Bomber Command 4 or 5 times in a row) often. I'd much rather see something fix that.

Don't get me wrong here--if you like this as a house rule and like using it, feel free and don't feel bad about it. But in terms of the overall game, I think there are other things that could use tweaking first.
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MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
Spyros_UCL wrote:
You are welcomed to stay with us
Careful what you wish for.
Spyros_UCL wrote:
In a computer implementation or human-moderated implementation, the moderator wouldn't have to shuffle. That's because the unknown deck remains unknown after drawing the requested card. It doesn't matter where the card was drawn from, to the player it shouldn't matter at all. The probability that there are 4 same cards in a row in the pre-shuffled deck is the same as the probability of having 4 same cards in a row in the post-shuffled deck.
The moderator absolutely has to shuffle. Before Reallocate Resources I have N Land Battles that are uniformly randomly distributed in my deck. (they might all be together or not, but that doesn't matter because it is unknown) After the Reallocate I should have N-1 Land Battles that are uniformly randomly distributed in my deck. A shuffle is the only way to preserve this property. If you don't shuffle, the moderator needs a rule for which of the N Land Battles he will retrieve (topmost? bottommost? random?) and the content of that rule impacts the choice of reallocating or not. This logic grows even more holes if you have a section of deck at the bottom that is immobile due to your fix.

Spyros_UCL wrote:
MyNameIsFourteen wrote:
The idea that the Rationed section of your deck cannot be searched with Reallocate Resources introduces a new bug that I personally would find unacceptable.
No, there is no such a bug. The rationed section of the deck can definitely be searched (and in fact it doesn't even have to be re-shuffled as the order of these cards is already known to the player).
Granted.

Spyros_UCL wrote:
Not sure if people have understood the solution to the glitch. It adds no new rules at all, neither changes anything, it's not a house rules or a variation.
I did misunderstand it slightly and I understand it better now, but the notion that it is not a house rule or variation is...absurd. It's certainly not RAW, so how can it be anything other than a variation.

Also for consistency's sake this 'fix' should probably also apply to the bottom of the US deck for Rosie the Riveter, the top of the German deck for Superior Planning, the top of the Italian deck for Pact Of Steel, and the top of all the Axis decks for Giuliani, Cappellini, and Torelli. Of course, in the case of Rosie the Riveter in particular, this rule would become an advantage for the USA rather than a bugfix (it prevents unwanted cards from coming up again). I guess the point I'm aiming towards is that QMG is a card game. Some tricks related to manipulating the decks of cards are inevitable. Deciding which ones are OK and which ones are not is a heck of a slippery slope.


Glad you understand it better now .

Regarding the re-shuffling of the deck, I was referring to the randomness of the deck after Land Battle in drawn. A player just needs to have no foreknowledge of the rest of his deck. Whether the rest of the deck has all the Land Battles together or not it's supposed to have no difference to the player, as every deck is different and should be treated the same. Even if drawing a deck "damages" a favourable property of your deck, then it would be part of the price (disadvantage) that you have to pay for directly taking to your hand the card you are looking for. Nevertheless, even in this fix, the non-rationed part of the deck is still shuffled after relocating resources so we have a new deck again (and thus there is no new problem/bug).
However, the opposite is absurd: you relocate resources and you reward yourself (instead of receiving a penalty) by giving a better position to the card which was supposed to stay at the bottom of the deck. That's why this fix makes the bottom card to stay where it is so that you don't receive this side-benefit. The non-bottom cards of course are still shuffled. So we respect the concept of shuffling (the deck will be unknown), and the concept of Rationing (the rationed bottom cards stay at the bottom).
That's why fixing a side-effect is not a variation. Ian had said:
IanBrody wrote:
I couldn't let folks just start picking up their draw deck and looking through it, maybe just to obtain a free shuffle


Regarding the rest of the cards such as Pact of Steel, Rosie The Riveter etc, of course this fix should be applied to them as well. Yes, exactly, this fix gives advantage to USA because otherwise the desired property of Rosie the Riveter (keeping those cards at the bottom of the deck) is broken. USA needs that. It's because Rosie the Riveter it was meant to be that way. This is how the cards were working in the base game before the addition of shuffling which has these non-desired side-effects. So the purpose of this fix is that makes the mechanics to continue working the same way they were meant to be when these cards were designed.
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