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Subject: Question regarding passing/end of game etiquette rss

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Joe Reil
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Just curious how this is to be handled in FTF games. The literature I've read on the rules indicates that there is no real passing, but rather when both players decide the game has ended, then it has ended.

Which I would take to mean as: Player A's turn. Player A looks at the board and doesn't see any further progress to be made and suggests to Player B that they end the game. Player B either agrees and they proceed to determine life & death and scoring or disagrees and Player A continues with his turn.

The way it works in the online servers I have played in (Yahoo's only, so far, I have logged into and explored KGS but have not yet played a game there) and in the computer versions is that a player decides to Pass their turn when they've decided they can do no more, and the other player then has the option of passing as well, at which point the game ends, or taking his turn.

Something like: Player A looks at the board and doesn't see any further progress to be made and passes. Player B either passes and they proceed to determine life & death and scoring or does not pass and then Player B takes his turn (Player A having forfeited his with the pass).

Which of these is correct for FTF games?
 
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Jeff Thompson
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It works pretty much like you describe.

In face to face games the players rearrange the territories for easier counting. Also any prisoners as added to the territories thus making scoring equal to your territory minus your opponent's prisoners instead of your territory plus your prisoner.

I just can't describe it, but I think there are some examples on the internet somewhere.
 
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Joe Reil
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Tompy wrote:
It works pretty much like you describe.


Which description? There were two different ones.

The main difference is that in one case Player A continues his turn, and in the other case his turn ends immediately and Player B's turn begins.
 
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Billy McBoatface
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In FTF games, when I think the game is over, I say "pass" when it is my turn. If my opponent chooses to make a move (it has happened a few times), that's fine, they get two moves in a row.

So in my experience, it goes like this:

a: plays stone
b: plays stone
a: "pass"
b: "OK, let's count it up"

or, more likely:

a: plays stone
b: plays stone
a: "I think that's it."
b: "OK, let's fill dame"
(dame-filling moves for a while)
a: "pass"
b: "yup. let's count."
 
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Jeff Thompson
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Seemed the same to me...

Player A: pass
Player B: play
(game does not end)
Player A: play
Player B: pass
(game does not end)
Player A: pass
game ends (two passes in a row)



A "pass" is a valid "play".

 
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Steve Sisk
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RedShark92 wrote:
. . . Player A having forfeited his with the pass . . .

And just to be sure on your understanding, a player passing does not mean that he can't play again if the other player plays. If he passes and his opponent plays, the first player may either play again or pass again.


Check out the BGG room and the Beginners room at KGS, plenty of people of all ranks to play!
 
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Brad Engels
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I think it never hurts to take turns filling in dame (neutral points) because sometimes points that LOOK neutral actually put stones in atari. In those cases that player will have to fill a point in what they thought was their territory, and in fact the point of territory never was theirs.
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Alexander B.
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When I was taught to play, we had a whole section of "claiming" territory and stones after and interwoven with the passing.

It would be like:

A: "I claim this group of stones"
B: "OK"
A: "I claim this group too"
B: "No way! Try and get them."
A: "OK, I play here."
B: "I play here."
A: "I play here."
B: "Pass."
A: "I play here."
B: "OK, they're yours."

And so on for each group.

I think what is happening here is that people are assuming that players are good enough to be able to look at a group and know if they are alive at a glance. Since I never got to this level of play, I see no way around the above procedure.

One thing that has really irked me when I've tried to play on Yahoo! is how amazingly arrogant some people can be about this.

I've honestly not seen life somewhere and the person gets upset that I won't give them the group. Then when they blunder, they blame me... just horrid.

What's worse, I've had several people quit out of a game while verbally abusing me for "playing ugly", huh? I was trying my best...

I never had these problems in chess. Sure, some players were assholes, but there was no dispute that people could play however they wanted and there is not this who issue around who has what group at the end and when it is "rude" to not pass.

With friend, we have no problems, but it seems some people expect you to be fairly strong player or not play at all in Go.
 
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Billy McBoatface
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Yes, if you aren't good enough to at a glance tell what's alive and dead at the end of the game, you will need to play on. In general, it is best to play by Chinese rules if you are at this level. In Chinese rules, making "extra moves" to resolve these problems won't change the final score. If you play by Japanese rules, you need to make the moves to prove alive or dead, then take away all the added moves. Ugh!

When I play with my daughter, whose grip on life and death is hazy at best (she's 4 years old after all), we always play by Chinese rules and we usually play out life and death of each group completely. Well, now we stop when her group is in atari and she can't give it more liberties - she is getting better.

As for assholes who won't play out a group: Either they're assholes, or else they weren't expecting to be playing a beginner. In the latter case they should still be more polite but it can be frustrating when you know that the game is over but your opponent insists on playing on. Best advice would be to find an online site with a better beginners area (I'll leave it to you to guess where I would recommend ) and there you shouldn't have this problem.
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Alexander B.
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wmshub wrote:
Yes, if you aren't good enough to at a glance tell what's alive and dead at the end of the game, you will need to play on. In general, it is best to play by Chinese rules if you are at this level. In Chinese rules, making "extra moves" to resolve these problems won't change the final score. If you play by Japanese rules, you need to make the moves to prove alive or dead, then take away all the added moves. Ugh!
.


That isn't how I was taught. We played that the added moves *stayed played*. This meant that it was risky to try and take a group if the opponent could pass a few times and still keep it alive, since that would cost you points.

I found this to be a lot of fun!

In the Yahoo! Go game, I have a very low rating, they know I'm a newbie, but some people are just very touchy about this issue of what the "etiquette" is for passing. I guess I just have a problem with this whole idea. I like games where you can play without having to worry about someone accusing you of hoping that they blunder: of course I hope that you'll blunder! That isn't insulting, it is smart play in my book.

I really like Go, but I do have this one problem with it: a problem that need not be if people would get over this "rudeness" idea, and just play the darn game!
 
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Billy McBoatface
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diamondspider wrote:
I really like Go, but I do have this one problem with it: a problem that need not be if people would get over this "rudeness" idea, and just play the darn game!
I think you're misinterpreting. People I know don't complain much about when the opponent hopes they blunder. They complain when the game drags on past what they know is the end.

Imagine if, in chess, you could keep playing after your king were mated and/or captured. You would still lose. You could just make more moves and force your opponent to answer. Would chess players get mad at this? Yes, because you're wasting their time, the game is over and here they still have to sit there and answer your moves! In go it's the same thing. When player knows the game is over, but their opponent keeps making moves, it's a drag. If I know I'm playing a beginner, I'm ready for that and I don't complain...but if a player of equal skill kept making these moves, I'd probably tell him to cut the crap and pass.

Again, if you find a place friendlier to beginners, you'll be OK. Then once you have a few more games you'll also know when the end of the game has happened, and you'll be able to stop moving.

As for playing by Japanese and paying a penalty for these "extra moves": That isn't Japanese rules, that isn't any acknowledged rule system. Japanese rules have their vague areas, but definitely after each players pass, no more stones may be permanently added to the board. If you must play out a sequence to determine what is alive and what is dead, these "played after the end" moves must not stay on the board for scoring purposes. Furthermore, the rules change slightly for these moves, making this system really bad for beginners...which is yet another reason why beginners should use Chinese scoring.
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Philip Thomas
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I suppose its like certain chess positions are known wins for one side. King alone vs King and Queen or King and Rock, for example. Once you get to that position it is strictly speaking unnecessary to play out the full sequence for the mate. Yet if you know your opponent has problems with that sequence, you may choose to force him to play it through. Its not so much rudeness as meta-gaming.
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Billy McBoatface
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Philip Thomas wrote:
I suppose its like certain chess positions are known wins for one side. King alone vs King and Queen or King and Rock, for example. Once you get to that position it is strictly speaking unnecessary to play out the full sequence for the mate. Yet if you know your opponent has problems with that sequence, you may choose to force him to play it through. Its not so much rudeness as meta-gaming.
Yes, exactly!

If you're in a game with a serious chess player have K vs. your opponent's K+R, they may get annoyed if you play it out. After all, "everybody knows" that K+R can mate a lone king, and any serious player can do it without a doubt, so you're just wasting your opponents' time. Playing past "the end of the game" in go is the same. Once you're past the beginners stage, you know the game is over, the outcome won't change, so why keep on playing?

But again, I want to emphasize that I'm *NOT* saying that beginners shouldn't do that. If you are uncertain about a group, you must play it out! It is the only way to learn! But you need to make sure your opponent is ready for this.
 
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Alexander B.
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I've been in chess tournaments where exactly that happened and, guess what, if it ticked off my opponent to make them play it out or not was not an issue: they had to.

If they blunder I win. It was my time on the clock to do with as I choose!

Did I always do this? Of course not... depended on how much time was left though...

... point is, the whole "rude" idea shouldn't come into serious gaming IMO... friendly gaming: fine.
 
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Billy McBoatface
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diamondspider wrote:
... point is, the whole "rude" idea shouldn't come into serious gaming IMO... friendly gaming: fine.
Wouldn't you call internet games friendly? To me they're a weird cross area between friendly and serious. Friendly because nothing of much importance is riding on the outcome, but serious because I'm there to get a good challenging game.

Anyway, as I say, I can understand the feeling. I want to play a game of go. I don't want to sit around for 10 minutes afterwards while my opponent makes moves that won't affect the outcome. In a tournament, I guess I have no choice (and nothing better to do anyway), but outside of a tournament I'll have better things to do. I hope I'd be a whole lot more polite that the opponents you've seen, and if I knew you were a beginner I wouldn't complain at all (in fact I've told my beginner opponents before that if they want to play something out, I'm happy to do so)...but if I were expecting to play a peer and he did this, I'd be pretty annoyed.
 
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Also, with a beginner you're usually expected to review the game, discuss alternative plays, etc. So if a few difficult bits of life and death get rolled into the game proper (rather than the review), it's no big deal.

I have a regular opponent who has no interest in studying nakade, and likes to play things out. We've managed to kill / live unexpectedly a few times, so it's good reading practice. If you just learn that a shape is dead without knowing why, you'll get in trouble as soon as the first ko fight occurs.

Edit: to answer the original question, a pass is a valid play, but it's also fine to say 'are we done?', i.e. to suggest that both players pass and proceed to scoring.
 
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Joe Reil
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Tompy wrote:
Seemed the same to me...


Almost, but not exactly.

The first example is not really a pass.

Player A: I suggest that the game should end.
Player B: I disagree.

Play continues on Player A's turn as if he never said anything.

The second example is a pass:

Player A: Pass.
Player B: Disagrees and plays a stone (for the purposes of this example).

and so on.

Quote:
A "pass" is a valid "play".


Well whether it is or not was my question. The way play is described in one of my rulebooks says that a pass is not an allowable play, but that the game simply ends when both players decide it should.

The online games I've seen do not work that way, and hence my question.
 
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Alexander B.
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I don't have any problem with experts saving time.

What I don't like is the idea that beginner or even medium players should just accept that some cases are dead or alive without playing them out.

I have read some Go books, and seen many cases were life could be found in very dead looking siuations and the other way around also.

I just get this feeling that people are trying to "act" like they know what is dead and not *way* before they really are that good.

This seems a bit snobbish to me and puts me off the game: a game I otherwise enjoy a lot.

I'd think that playing it out would be the default... it seems that assuming is the default though... that is what bugs me and I wanted to chime in because *for sure* I'd think that beginners should play out just about everything (as stated by several people in this thread) and not worry about etiquette too much. I don't know how else anyone can ever get good!
 
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Good points, but I think a beginner can pick up the basic nakade (squared four, bulky five, etc) in his or her own time. You don't need another player if the eyespace is small: just get a board out and try every possible combination of moves to see what happens. It's interesting and good practice.

I think playing it out can be as bad as assuming without knowing, in a way. If you've just started playing, you might miss a seki or a bent four and come to conclusion that's that doesn't hold true for later games. Best to study the shapes and see what conditions they live or die under.

This page has some good explanations of the basic nakade shapes:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Nakade
 
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Dave Dyer
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The trickiest bit is that there are many situations where,
another defensive move might be necessary, but only after a certain
number of the dame have been filled. Under Japanese rules,
playing an unnecessary move of this type costs you a point.
Where failing to play it can either cost nothing, or anything
up to the life of the group.

Experienced players recognize these situations pretty reliably,
but not 100% reliably, and some tricky fights revolve around
the question of if a certain move is really necessary.

If we call "the real score" the score given perfect play from
here on, games generally end when the real score has been reached.
Both players pass. And if you discover something unexpected
while filling Dame, you just fix it. "Oops, I had to fill here!"
Based on the idea that if you'd played the last 30 dame filling moves
with full battle intensity, you would have done it right. If you
don't think your opponent is that smart, and you really want the
points, then you keep playing even though your opponent is passing.
He'll be suspicious, naturally.

Also, note that automated scoring such as done by KGS will
definitely get this "last point" analysis wrong and fail
to recognise a mandatory fill-in, therefore getting the score
wrong by one point. You can always avoid this by playing
it out until the necessary move is made.
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Jeffrey Nolin
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The Yahoo Go site is not a Go community. I wish more people there were playing GO. To get frustrated by anything you experience there should not be allowed to influence the way you think about GO. Seek out someone to play face to face.
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longagoigo wrote:
The Yahoo Go site is not a Go community. I wish more people there were playing GO. To get frustrated by anything you experience there should not be allowed to influence the way you think about GO. Seek out someone to play face to face.


You could try KGS or IGS, both have more "serious" Go-playing communities. KGS, I know, has a function that matches you up with players of near-even strength, which can really help improve play.

As for passing etiquette, it depends on the level of play.

If you're playing FtF with your friends, then it is probably acceptable to just agree to end the game without going through the formality of passing twice in a row. In these cases, it really depends on the personality of the opponent. My friends have always been happy to agree to end... maybe because I tend to butcher them.

If you're playing FtF in a tournament setting, however, you will have to pass.

Online, the mechanics of the go-clients require you to actually pass, obviously. I suppose you could ask the other player if they thought the game ought to end, but usually by that point you're in byoyomi time and have none to spare for chat.
 
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