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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bystander face rss

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Adam Steele
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After Big Trouble in Little China, the question became more relevant on whether the bystanders are supposed to be revealed when an effect gives one to them such as Deadpool, Masters of Evil WW2, Green Goblin, etc. This is especially relevant in Little China, but it obviously would affect this, too. We couldn't find a rule that specifies either way.
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David A
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I have to admit, I don't understand what you're asking.....
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Adam Steele
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Sorry, I apparently muddled my words a bit. Do bystanders that get captured by effects instead of the deck go on face up or down?
Also, can this be moved to Rules, please? Sorry about that.
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Todd Warnken
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I always but bystanders face up when they are captured.
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Max Jansson
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Mundane wrote:
I always but bystanders face up when they are captured.


I didn't at first, but now I am. Just flip them as soon as they get pulled from the stack.
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Justin H

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I thought this thread was going to be pictures of people posting their "Bystander Faces".

But seriously, I always put them face up once they enter play too.
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Nathan McKeehan
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We always put them face-up as soon as they leave the bystander deck. Otherwise, you might forget what the face-down card is doing there.
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Jem
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Face up, though I admit the rules aren't direct and clear on this one. Generally nothing in the city is face down in Marvel Legendary, but:

1) None of the rulebooks actually state whether bystanders in the city should be face up or face down.

2) Bystanders in the city can come from two places - directly from the Bystander deck (Ambush: XYZ captures a bystander) or from the Villain deck as one of the bystanders in it from the outset.

2b) Ignoring specific schemes, bystanders from the villain deck have to be revealed to be put into play in the city, so they should presumably be face up - the rules rarely indicate an informational advantage for any one player (though sometimes it is part of specific powers)

3) Logically therefore it probably makes more sense to be consistent and simply rule that bystanders captured by villains as they arrive are also played face up - allowing players to see what effects will occur when they rescue that bystander (usually by fighting that villain).
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Davy Ashleydale
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it might be cool to have a Villain that captures a facedown bystander as its Ambush effect. Mildly cool.
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scott jacobsen

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I think the issue here is that ever since bystanders with effects were added it seems like knowing what bystander you are going to save provides a bit of an unfair advantage. This is particularly true with the bystander that becomes a villain. I mean the whole concept of the villain bystander is that it is an unexpected surprise, but it isn't very surprising if you already know what kind of bystander has been captured. In fact, on multiple occasions I have let a villain with a villain bystander escape because I didn't want to turn the bystander into a villain. This was a pretty sound strategy but really took away from the theme of the game. On other occasions I have opted to rescue one captured bystander instead of another because I wanted the effect of one bystander more than the other. This also seems strange. Super heros never let bystanders die if they can do something about it and out side of romantic interests they pretty much never pick and choose which civilians to save. So, I came up with a simple solution. I saved a few of the extra cards that come with each set (you know the ones with the logo on both sides). I shuffle them in the deck as placeholders for the bystanders and I stack my bystanders face down. When one of the placeholder cards comes up I set it off to the side and place a bystander face-down with the villain. This has been a simple and clear solution, and has made the rescuing of bystanders much more true to the narrative.
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David A
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shjacobsen wrote:
So, I came up with a simple solution. I saved a few of the extra cards that come with each set (you know the ones with the logo on both sides). I shuffle them in the deck as placeholders for the bystanders and I stack my bystanders face down. When one of the placeholder cards comes up I set it off to the side and place a bystander face-down with the villain. This has been a simple and clear solution, and has made the rescuing of bystanders much more true to the narrative.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems overly involved. It would be so much easier to just place the Bystander with the Villain face down.

That said, this entire thread has intrigued me. I think I'm going to house rule this and start playing Bystanders face down until rescued!
 
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scott jacobsen

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Thud105 wrote:
shjacobsen wrote:
So, I came up with a simple solution. I saved a few of the extra cards that come with each set (you know the ones with the logo on both sides). I shuffle them in the deck as placeholders for the bystanders and I stack my bystanders face down. When one of the placeholder cards comes up I set it off to the side and place a bystander face-down with the villain. This has been a simple and clear solution, and has made the rescuing of bystanders much more true to the narrative.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems overly involved. It would be so much easier to just place the Bystander with the Villain face down.

That said, this entire thread has intrigued me. I think I'm going to house rule this and start playing Bystanders face down until rescued!


Yeah it is a little involved but it was the only way I could come up with to not reveal what type of bystander is coming out of the villain deck. Your way works great for ambush effects or other card effects that have villains/masterminds capture bystanders but the bystanders in the villain deck are still given away because you have to reveal them before you play them. The card blanks solve this.
 
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Adam Steele
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Thud105 wrote:
shjacobsen wrote:
So, I came up with a simple solution. I saved a few of the extra cards that come with each set (you know the ones with the logo on both sides). I shuffle them in the deck as placeholders for the bystanders and I stack my bystanders face down. When one of the placeholder cards comes up I set it off to the side and place a bystander face-down with the villain. This has been a simple and clear solution, and has made the rescuing of bystanders much more true to the narrative.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems overly involved. It would be so much easier to just place the Bystander with the Villain face down.

That said, this entire thread has intrigued me. I think I'm going to house rule this and start playing Bystanders face down until rescued!


Well then, allow me to give you an informed perspective of what happens, since this is the reality I have lived that apparently is foreign to all of you.
Personally, I actually like having the bystander be a mystery. I'm going to start with a bit of a dated reference: the House of the Dead 2 (for those not in the know, it's a rail-guided shooter with zombies, oozing with a "so bad, it's good" quality). Let's even say the Legendary scenario involves Deadlands just to mirror the whole thing. So, you're shooting everything that appears on the screen, when suddenly you hear those 2 little words: "Help me!" You scramble to save the survivor, blasting away all the zombies that threaten to kill them, and you are victorious! The bystander proclaims "thank you for saving me!" Sometimes, it's just left at that. You've done your good deed, and you move on. Sometimes, they provide valuable information that suggests you should take another path. Sometimes, they give you extra health that's absolutely precious. This is all cool, but it never matters.
Switch back to Legendary. You've gathered your heroes to fight the villain, which has kidnapped an innocent bystander. You are victorious, and it proclaims "thank you for saving me" as you put it in your victory pile. The fact that the cardboard is talking to you does nothing to make you consider that maybe something was wrong with that burrito you had with vertically-stacked flavors, and you just appreciate a job well done. Then, you flip it over to see if it has any special kind of reward to offer. It turns out it's an engineer, and may be able to help you thin out your deck. Well, that's awesome!
You fight on as the Deadland Hordes Charge the Wall. You're doing everything you can to keep them at bay, but they just... keep... coming! The city is filled, and you manage to take out the toughest villain, who happened to capture a bystander with it. You put it in your victory pile, assuring it that you have everything under control and it's safe. You turn it over...
SPITTING HISS!!!
It jumpscares you and leaps off the bridge. As you see it swim into the sewer exit, you feel like you've accomplished nothing. You've tried so hard to protect your city, but you've just unleashed another monstrocity. It's not even that big of a threat, but there are just so many, it's a big problem simply by existing. Your heroes have given everything they've got. You have nothing left to chase it in the sewers, and actually pray to hear the mastermind's evil laugh. At least then, you might be able to prepare yourself for his Master Strike, and your allies might be able to get the situation under control before another Deadland Horde makes it over the wall.
Spider-Gwen is doing what she does best, Saving the Day as a friendly neighborhood Spider-Gwen does. She swings past the rooftops, clutches the poor bystander before another villain can come threaten it, and HISS!!! You let it drop and it scurries into the sewers. Rather than have your morale boosted by saving a helpless bystander, you've actually unleashed another monster into the world! Well, Spider-Gwen won't stand for this, as you and your allies bravely pursue the beast into the sewers, yet you can't shake the notion one of you won't survive the ordeal...
*Rewind*
...laedro eht evivrus t'now uoy fo eno noiton eht ekahs t'nac uoy tey ,srewes eht otni tsaeb eht eusrup ylevarb seilla ruoy dna uoy sa ,siht rof dnats t'now newG-redipS ,lleW !dlrow eht otni retsnom rehtona dehsaelnu yllautca ev'uoy ,rednatsyb sselpleh a gnivas yb detsoob elarom ruoy evah naht rehtaR .srewes eht otni seirrucs ti dna pord ti tel uoY !!!SSIH dna ,ti netaerht emoc nac nialliv rehtona erofeb rednatsyb roop eht sehctulc ,spotfoor eht tsap sgniws ehS .seod newG-redipS doohrobhgien yldneirf a sa yaD eht gnivaS ,tseb seod ehs tahw gniod si newG-redipS
*Play*
Spider-Gwen is doing what she does best, Saving the Day as a friendly neighborhood Spider-Gwen does. She swings past the rooftops, clutches the poor bystander before another villain can come threaten it, and...
"This is Vicki Vale, live on the scene, and I've just been rescued from all this madness by Spider-Gwen! Finally, someone is putting a stop to the horrors that plague the city tonight! And yet, while a guardian angel has come for me, it may not come fast enough for the people at *radio static*..."
(Yes, I just inserted some DC into a Marvel game. Wannafightaboutit?)
(Also, I just realized that whole Spider-Gwen thing is totally irrelevant to my point...)

The unknown quality definitely has nice appeal. Having never really played with them face-up since this problem started, I can't really say what it's like. Keeping in that story theme, I imagine it's something like that scene from the Dark Knight Rises at the football game, where everyone is staring at the villain as he interviews his captive live to the world. He's just what we need, the one with the skills that could be crucial to nullifying the villain's threat. When help never comes, it's finally too late, and the villain just kills him. Mechanically, it does feel a little objectifying. "Sorry guy, I can only save one, and you don't seem to have any marketable skills to justify my assistance." It's a little cold-hearted. If not for Big Trouble in Little China, I'd be happy just playing as I have, but now it introduced bystanders that help the villains. They obviously would work when revealed from the deck, but it produces a very big question when they're just randomly kidnapped.
 
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David A
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shjacobsen wrote:
Yeah it is a little involved but it was the only way I could come up with to not reveal what type of bystander is coming out of the villain deck.

Ahhhh.........I missed that it was regarding the Bystanders in the Villain Deck. Makes much more sense now!
 
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Jem
France
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shjacobsen wrote:
I think the issue here is that ever since bystanders with effects were added it seems like knowing what bystander you are going to save provides a bit of an unfair advantage. This is particularly true with the bystander that becomes a villain.

The players already have this advantage regarding the fight and escape effects of villains in the city. I've had plenty of games where specific villains have been fought or left to escape chosen based on which effects are going to be particularly problematic for a given scheme.

The heroes of the comic canon tend not to let villains escape if at all possible, but in Legendary there are often situations where it's a reasonable. Already basically defeated the scheme? Let Mystique escape and target the Sentinel instead. Essentially immune to the Masterstrike? Well let's just ignore Reignfire then and focus on the Killbot that might escape in a few turns.

Don't get me wrong, what you're suggesting is an interesting houserule. I might give it a try.
 
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