$30.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monster Movement - Barricade Conundrum rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sure we've seen this one in Escape from Innsmouth...

"The Deep One Hybrid moves 2 spaces toward the nearest investigator. Then it attacks the investigator in its space who has suffered the least Damage." With choices "The Monster Attacks" and "No investigators within 2 spaces"

Neither of which are true if it fails its barricade roll.

In choosing "No investigators within 2 spaces" the Deep One Hybrid will be instructed to move(or atleast attemtp to) 2 spaces again.

How have you guys been playing this one?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zen
Japan
Kyoto
flag msg tools
youtube.com/neatozen
badge
follow me on twitter: @zenxacred
mbmbmbmbmb
If it fails, it doesn't move. So there aren't any investigators. Click there.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Baker Odom
United States
Bluffton
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If it fails to break down the barricade then he just stays still. In the instance you're speaking let's say there was no barricade and also no investigator within 2 spaces.

You would not move the monster two spaces, click "no investigators within 2 spaces" and then move the monster another 2 spaces. That second movement prompt is intended to tell you to move him 2 spaces even though he won't be making it to an investigator. Therefor the first failure to break the barricade prevents the monster's movement and he doesn't get a second shot.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
But there are investigators within 2 spaces...

I know that I need to click this one, as I don't want to click "The Monster Attacks"

Perhaps I'm just pointing out an instance in the app that doesn't have a valid choice. Is there an established page/site/forum to share this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thebaker1983 wrote:
If it fails to break down the barricade then he just stays still. In the instance you're speaking let's say there was no barricade and also no investigator within 2 spaces.

You would not move the monster two spaces, click "no investigators within 2 spaces" and then move the monster another 2 spaces. That second movement prompt is intended to tell you to move him 2 spaces even though he won't be making it to an investigator. Therefor the first failure to break the barricade prevents the monster's movement and he doesn't get a second shot.


Hang on. You are changing my situation. The investigators are in an adjacent room. The monster fails the roll. Neither choice is valid.

Some monsters have a prompt that tells them to move up to 2 spaces to be within range of the most investigators... one of the choices is cannot move within range. Which makes sense if none are within range. It then prompts the monster to move 2 spaces.

This one is different. Move the monster 2 spaces. Period. Is it a typo in the prompts? Should it say move up to 2 spaces to be in the same space? Thus if if can't be in the same space I click on "none within 2"

I think I am not understanding something.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This is, unfortunately, a design problem with no good solution short of a patch to the app. A lot of the monster instructions simply don't take into account the possibility of a barricade. Until such time as they add a 'monster stopped by barricade' option to those encounters, you're just going to have to run with a house rule and do the best you can.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
This is, unfortunately, a design problem with no good solution short of a patch to the app. A lot of the monster instructions simply don't take into account the possibility of a barricade. Until such time as they add a 'monster stopped by barricade' option to those encounters, you're just going to have to run with a house rule and do the best you can.


And in Lovecraftian fashion, I suppose I should take the harder option and allow the Monster a 2nd chance at moving 2 spaces.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would strongly suggest that you treat the second movement as part of the first and hence it is forfeit. If you move it on the second instruction, then it can move further than it would usually be able to move if it knocks down the barrier the second time.

It makes absolutely no sense that a monster could move further when there is a barricade in its way than when there is no barricade.

This is one that I really hope they are planning to update soon in the app. The app needs a way to know when such monsters started moving, but were blocked by a barricade.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it would have been better if the results of the barricade were fully on the app side, instead of being a dice roll. That way they could have customized the results, like cultists finding a different way around, hounds of tindalos teleporting past them, or shoggoths just busting through.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Baker Odom
United States
Bluffton
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
thebaker1983 wrote:
If it fails to break down the barricade then he just stays still. In the instance you're speaking let's say there was no barricade and also no investigator within 2 spaces.

You would not move the monster two spaces, click "no investigators within 2 spaces" and then move the monster another 2 spaces. That second movement prompt is intended to tell you to move him 2 spaces even though he won't be making it to an investigator. Therefor the first failure to break the barricade prevents the monster's movement and he doesn't get a second shot.


Hang on. You are changing my situation. The investigators are in an adjacent room. The monster fails the roll. Neither choice is valid.

Some monsters have a prompt that tells them to move up to 2 spaces to be within range of the most investigators... one of the choices is cannot move within range. Which makes sense if none are within range. It then prompts the monster to move 2 spaces.

This one is different. Move the monster 2 spaces. Period. Is it a typo in the prompts? Should it say move up to 2 spaces to be in the same space? Thus if if can't be in the same space I click on "none within 2"

I think I am not understanding something.


Sorry I confused the situation. My point was this...there is NO situation that would allow that monster to move twice. Therefore the second time the app mentions movement it is simply clarifying for you that if there aren't any investigators within 2 spaces you still move the monster 2 spaces.

And since there is no situation where that monster would move twice you aren't going to test it against the barricade twice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
I think it would have been better if the results of the barricade were fully on the app side, instead of being a dice roll. That way they could have customized the results, like cultists finding a different way around, hounds of tindalos teleporting past them, or shoggoths just busting through.


+1 to this, I know Nikki pays attention to the forums, but does she pay attention enough to catch little wishes like this one...

Also, I wish there was a larger difference between attacking with a bladed weapon, heavy weapon, spell, or unarmed. Seems that they are all the same really, spells being the worst as they often carry along a negative effect.

A lot of the time attacking unarmed seems the most effective.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thebaker1983 wrote:
Sorry I confused the situation. My point was this...there is NO situation that would allow that monster to move twice.

I have actually experienced such a situation. There is a type of monster I've seen that will move 1 space towards the nearest investigator, and then attempt to attack an adjacent investigator. If there are no investigators to attack (which differs from the none within range prompt), then it moves 1 further space via a second instruction.

Quote:
And since there is no situation where that monster would move twice you aren't going to test it against the barricade twice.

I will agree with this statement, though, for all monsters that use the "Move to be within range of the most investigators" type monsters. These are the ones that use the "couldn't move" type prompt that triggers a replacement movement. Those should not try to move twice due to the first attempt being blocked by a barricade.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Taylor
Switzerland
Uster
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, we had the same situation last night with the

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Deep One Hybrid in the Escape Innsmouth scenario, becoming blocked by a barricade at the door to the hotel bedroom


My question is this: at what point does the monster stop/remain testing at the barricade, when there is a valid second route to the investigator?

We played counting spaces, so that when the monster was closer with the alternate route, he would turn around and move that was instead.

Are they so stupid as to continually smack into the barricade the whole mission?

Any advice?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Baker Odom
United States
Bluffton
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
They will always take the shortest route.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drake Coker
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
This is my tank for Combat Commander
mbmbmbmbmb
I've found it generally easier to think of the monsters getting two actions, just like the investigators. The most common action pairs are either move then attack or move then move again. Sometimes the monsters will forfeit one of their actions.

In cases where the app doesn't present an entirely complete set of questions, picking the question that corresponds most closely to what you would expect the monster to do seems to work out. Usually, that's either attack if there is a valid target (according the question's specifics) or, if not, the other choice available. Often, the other choice will ask for a follow-up move action.

The Barricade rules are a little vague here. All it says is that if the monster fails its roll, the "monster forfeits its movement". Does that mean that all movement for the entire turn or just the current move instruction? The rules don't say.

I play it that the monster just forfeits its current move "action", so if the app asks for the monster to move again in the same turn, I give it a second chance at the Barricade. That's what is most equivalent to the way the investigators treat failed rolls so seems the more likely interpretation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You'll soon start noticing the patterns that the monsters that are given the movement as the second option generally only have that happen when their first instruction should not have moved them. There are a few exceptions (such as slow and steady plodding monsters), but it's quite clear from the wording that the second movement is essentially replacing the fact they couldn't move to attack.

The criteria I use is thus:

If the monster is blocked by a barricade, and the app button I push would normally (in a non-barrier situation) have been pushed in a situation where the monster would not have moved, then I ignore any movement (but not placement) command provided by the second instruction.

This seems to be the intended approach.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anthony Harlan

Oregon
msg tools
mb
Clipper wrote:
I would strongly suggest that you treat the second movement as part of the first and hence it is forfeit. If you move it on the second instruction, then it can move further than it would usually be able to move if it knocks down the barrier the second time.


The monster can't move further. The first movement was "toward the investigator..." The second movement is also. The only thing that second movement allows for is a second opportunity to break down the door, which grants the original movement without attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G Y
msg tools
Monsters either get once instance of movement and one attack or two instances of movement. That means they might get two opportunities to break down barricades per turn. When breaking down a barricade, if you fail, you forfeit the rest of your action, not the rest of your movement. If a player could take another action to try again, then monsters can too.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mxyzptlk wrote:
Clipper wrote:
I would strongly suggest that you treat the second movement as part of the first and hence it is forfeit. If you move it on the second instruction, then it can move further than it would usually be able to move if it knocks down the barrier the second time.


The monster can't move further. The first movement was "toward the investigator..." The second movement is also. The only thing that second movement allows for is a second opportunity to break down the door, which grants the original movement without attack.

I agree, given the exact example in the OP, but the exact example in the OP is a bad one and has been incorrectly transcribed. It doesn't exist like that in the app.

The type of instruction that will be followed up by a second movement is:
"Move up to 3 spaces to be within range of the most investigators as possible and attack all investigators" or "Move up to 2 spaces to be within the space of the nearest investigator and attack the investigator in that space with the lowest Observation".

The above would not usually cause movement if the monster physically can't reach the investigators, hence the second instruction is intended to replace the first.

Having said that, I have seen a monster that moves towards investigators and does get a follow up move if it couldn't attack, but its movement speed was only 1 space, meaning 2 spaces total. All examples of seen of other monster instructions where it can move multiple spaces in the first instruction are only followed by a second instruction if the first instruction could cause no movement at all.

Veggiesama wrote:
Monsters either get once instance of movement and one attack or two instances of movement. That means they might get two opportunities to break down barricades per turn. When breaking down a barricade, if you fail, you forfeit the rest of your action, not the rest of your movement. If a player could take another action to try again, then monsters can too.

I agree with this for the slow monster I've seen that I mentioned above. It would indeed to try twice. I have never seen a monster that starts with a first instruction of "move up to X spaces towards investigators" that gets a follow-up movement provided X is 2 or more. Such monsters that are guaranteed to attempt to move in the first instruction for a distance of more than X never get a second instruction for further movement.

In my experience, the only monsters that get 2 movement instructions are when they are slow (X=1) or the first instruction could result in zero movement.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:
but the exact example in the OP is a bad one and has been incorrectly transcribed. It doesn't exist like that in the app.


Whoa there, I typed it verbatim from the app to the forum as I posted.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
Whoa there, I typed it verbatim from the app to the forum as I posted.

Oh...

Well, I hadn't seen that instruction in my experience. Given its existence, I'd have to say that it indeed does move twice, even if there is no barricade.

So I'd still stick to my usual analogy. Monsters that get stuck by a barricade but wouldn't have moved at all if they hadn't gotten stuck are probably intended to ignore their second movement instruction (or at least have another app option to say they tried to move but were blocked). The example in the op is not such a monster.

I'm sorry for doubting you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Doing some further testing, I cannot replicate your experience, Dan.

I can make the prompt you mention come up, but it has no second movement.
The Deep One Hybrid can get a second movement, but it's only when the first instruction was:

"The Deep One Hybrid moves up to 2 spaces to be in a space with as many investigators as possible. Then it attacks each investigator in its space."

Its other options for movement do not generate the second movement, which matches my prior experiences perfectly.

Are you absolutely sure you got the 2nd movement on the exact prompt you mentioned?


Edit: OK, even more testing meant I can replicate this! The monster gave me the same prompt twice in a row on successive Mythos turns, but it moved twice one out of those two times.

So while most monsters try to move only once, it seems some monsters can indeed move twice! This turns everything on its head. I think I may retract my prior rule of thumb. It seems some monsters can indeed attempt to move twice some of the time. Those should get two barricade tests, so it is much more difficult to argue that the initially stationary ones should not get a second barricade test.

Thank you for sticking to your guard. I find it weird that the rules for the monsters aren't as consistent as they seemed, but I guess this was my own private madness after all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Sigal
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Clipper wrote:

So while most monsters try to move only once, it seems some monsters can indeed move twice! This turns everything on its head. I think I may retract my prior rule of thumb. It seems some monsters can indeed attempt to move twice some of the time. Those should get two barricade tests, so it is much more difficult to argue that the initially stationary ones should not get a second barricade test.


We played Scenario 5 last night, and this was really relevant, as there were a lot of monsters that had double movement (and lots of opportunities to barricade). We played it that the monsters do make 2 barricade checks for the two movements, as that seemed the most logical to us.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.