$20.00
$5.00
$15.00
$30.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Goval with Wesley Crusher rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jason Cork
msg tools
So I can't find a ruling on the WES and they don't answer new questions it seems, so I am seeking help here.

So if I take Wesley Crusher (5sp) and place the 3 techs under him and then "discard" him to reveal one tech and then use Goval to protect Wesley from being discarded does this happen BEFORE or AFTER his last two techs are discarded? I can't find an order of discard anywhere, thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe this is an instance where Wesley only works once per game. When you deploy his first tech, the other techs are necessarily removed from the game. The "if you do so" refers to the deploying of the tech.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
I am not sure since with other crew members, even cheaper ones, goval allows them to do their action again, so why not Wesley too?

So you think the order is:

1) use crusher
2) pop goval
3) goval saves crusher but not the tech?

Logically that doesn't seem right lol....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
The key wording is "If you do so, remove the other two tech from the game."
You can save Wesley but he has nothing to place with a second action.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
I get that wording but my thoughts are like a stack for magic:

1) use Wesley
2) use Goval so Welsey is never "discarded"
3) if Wesley is not discarded, neither are his techs

VS. normally

1) use Wesley
2) Discard techs

Don't you think the wording on goval would intercede BEFORE techs are removed as he says discard himself "at ANY time" to prevent another crew from being discarded? I liken it to this: Say my opponent forces me to discard him (or Quark who also has cards under him) and I pop Goval then, do the techs under him stay or go as it states on his text as soon as Wesley is discarded techs go to?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just in terms of timing, I agree (so yeah, if Goval saved him from someone else's discard, he wouldn't lose the techs). But I think the more important question is "once you've popped, can Goval stop as of step 3 is the effect still checking to see whether Wesley was actually discarded?" As you noted in your first reply, discard costs tend to be fire-and-forget: once you've "discarded" and Govaled someone, the card just cheerfully parses the rest of the text, satisfied that the initial trigger has occurred.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Agreed on timing BUT Wesley's Card states "you may discard this card to flip one of those upgrades face up... if you do so, remove the other two face down upgrades" - so again it is a language / magic like stack action - i.e. Goval says you can use to prevent another upgrade from being discarded at ANY time... Key word ANY... so, you discard Wesley, flip up a tech, POP GOVAL now (at any time), then when you get if you do so (which HAS to refer to the Wesley card NOT the cards underneath since they are NOT considered in play) then you have NOT discarded Wesley (because Goval prevented him from EVER being discarded)so they second part of discarding the remaining techs does NOT trigger... Logically and grammatically (I checked with an English major lol) that is what should happen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
Goval is discarded in lieu of Wesley, and Wesley's Tech is deployed, that's how every other card interacts with Goval, and I think we can all agree with that.

Goval still allows a card to be "discarded" to meet its requirement, but he sacrifices himself, so that the original card remains in play, and he goes instead.

Where I'm at is the "If you do so." That phrase refers to activating the ability of Wesley. He has been discarded (but Goval has been discarded in his place), and a Tech has been deployed. Every condition on Wesley has been fulfilled to meet "If you do so..." Therefore, the other 2 tech are removed from the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
I agree with all but ONE point - Wesley is NEVER discarded because Goval's card says "discard this card at any time to PREVENT 1 of your other crew from being discarded" = key word PREVENT. Goval prevents Wesley from ever being discarded so that condition is NOT met, so the other techs are NOT discarded because Wesley never was... see my point? It's use Wesley, take tech, immediately pop Goval so he is discarded NOT Wesley, then read rest of Wesley's text and the conditions are NOT met, so the techs stay.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
You're misunderstanding how Wesley works, or how Goval works, I'm not sure which.
The condition on removing the Techs is not predicated on Wesley being discarded, it is predicated on deploying one. Once you've done that the others are gone. It's almost identical to Shinzon.
If you do so refers to deploying tech, not everything beforehand, not discarding Wesley, only the thing that is immediately before it, which is deploying the Tech.

Furthermore, Goval plus Varel works. Varel is "Discard this card to prevent an attack." Are you saying that because I didn't discard Varel that I can't prevent an attack?
Because it sure sounds like it. But that's not how it works. Varel is still counted is activating her effect, it's simply Goval that is taking the place of Varel being discarded. The same logic applies here. Wesley is activating his effect, but Goval is being discarded in place of Wesley.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Okay, I am an OP judge and a long time player so I am reading both as they are printed and how other cards work (as well as comparing it to other games like X-wing / Magic etc). I am also analyzing subject and predicate of proper English. Varel works EXACTLY as how I just said Wesley does - Use Varel to cancel an attack, the attack is cancelled, then pop Goval (again at ANY time)to prevent her from being discarded BUT after her effect cancels the attack. That is how it works. So re-reading Wesley's card yet again (lol) to double check, let's look at the sentence now: "During the activation phase, you may discard this card to flip one of those upgrades face up and deploy it to your ship... if you do so, ..." the subject of the first line is DISCARDING Wesley and the qualifier of the second line modifies the subject from the PREVIOUS line which is discarding the card - the if/then if you will is DISCARDING Wesley, not deploying the techs. The devil is in the details - the language of the card is clearly stating the the discard is the trigger. Logically game wise this makes sense too - If Goval is used to protect Varel, you get 10 points of use from Varel (5sp x2 uses) or even 20 if it is not on a science vessel. Let's look at Nanclus - he is 5 points too, so again Goval gives you 10sp of cards for 1 point. If Goval works like this for EVERY other crew in the game, is it a stretch to think that's how he works for Wesley who would only get 8sp of points of use vs other crew that can be as high as 12 sp of use with Goval? I posted this on the WORF but they have not responded to anyone since July SO what I am trying to do is come up with a reasonable ruling on this lol.

There are so many rulings they need to speak up on... it is really hurting play (like if you place the fleet action token, or Sulu's token for his action, or Riker's token does Bioelectric Field remove those tokens in addition to target locks, cloak etc... some people at my venue say yes, others no). I always go by what the card states and whether or not the upgrade has a "token" to place when it does its action.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
And I've judged a bunch of events too, including Regionals. Credentials don't mean much. Wizkids has said for their other games that the weaker interpretation is the general best course of action when in doubt, so that's what any sensical TO should do.

Also, you don't discard a card until you complete the card effect. Wesley wouldn't be discarded until the entirety of his text is resolved. So you Action him, remove the tech, then Goval to save him.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Could you provide me the page number that states you don't discard a card until you complete the effect. And the reference for where wizkids has stated this as I can't find it. And Why would you choose the weaker vs the "norm" for EVERY other crew card in the game? If Wesley was that "special" he would have had an errata or ruling by now so I don't think your argument holds water in that case. And yes, credentials and education matter - I am not a noobie nor unversed in reading comprehension.

AND think of the wording on Goval - again I repeat it says AT ANY time it can be used - let's do this step by step AGAIN

1) I read Wesleys first part of his card allowing him to grab a tech, 2) THEN I pop Goval before I read then next part of the text and since Wesley was NEVER discarded 3) the last part of the text goes unused since he was never discarded. Again, I am reading the cards EXACTLY as they are being read. I have PhDs in English read it - who have no vested interest in the outcome - and they spell it out exactly how I have. That may not be the "intention" of Wizkids but unless you can show me a ruling otherwise that is how the card reads LOGICALLY and GRAMMATICALLY. And if we use precedent, again I say that since every other crew card in the game (100+) works the way I have said this does it is logical and reasonable to assume this card does too. Why would ONE crew card act SO differently? That makes NO sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
WESLEY WAS DISCARDED. Goval prevented the discard, but the discard was triggered. Wesley's tech cannot be saved. Every other TO with an ounce of common sense will agree with that ruling.

Essentially, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying you can "discard" Wesley, but not really to reveal a tech, but then since you didn't really discard him, it doesn't trigger the second conditional.
There are 2 conditional statements. Either they both work, or neither does. You either deploy a tech and discard the others, or you don't do either.

As for the Judge guidance, it's a Dice Masters guideline, but it makes sense for every game - http://win.wizkids.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8510&sid=32dc...

Cards not being discarded until the entire card text happens is common sense. The card is a whole entity. If you discarded it the instant it said discard, you couldn't complete the card since there is nothing there for you to read.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Okay... again WESLEY IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS EVER DISCARDED. PERIOD. Goval states clearly "discard this card AT ANY TIME TO PREVENT 1 of your other crew upgrades from being discarded" = PREVENT MEANS WESLEY WAS NEVER DISCARDED - it does not say bring the card back like Sopek does for example it says PREVENT. For example if you PREVENT A FIRE, you never had a FIRE. How can you logically think what you said makes sense? lol... Using Sopek, I agree, Wesley and his upgrades would be separated because in that case, Wesley was actually discarded and so were his techs. BUT to use your example and my fire example again, your interpretation would be the fire starts then you stop it and pretend the fire never started lol... that makes no sense, and neither does this - Wesley was PREVENTED from being discarded, he was NOT discarded and then brought back like Sopek would do. So if he was never discarded, neither would his tech as they removal is predicated on Wesley being discarded which he was NOT. Think of the text as a stack that you resolve oldest to newest:

1) Pop Wesley
2) Pop Goval
3) Goval discarded, Wesley prevented
4) So when you check if he was discarded to discard tech, it does not happen because he was never discarded
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
If Wesley was never discarded then you cannot deploy a tech in the first place. Your argument proves that point.

You cannot use Goval to interrupt a card. You cannot use anything to interrupt a card.
Tournament FAQ 47. When a card states it may be played or used at any time or does not list when it may be used. It may only be used between the phases of each round.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Why can't it be deployed?

And wrong. The card says EXACTLY when it can be used: "to prevent 1 of your other crew upgrades from being discarded to disabled" That is specific and using the your logic, if you waited until the NEXT PHASE Goval could not and would not work - once a card is DISCARDED, it is DISCARDED - Goval can not bring back a card AFTER a card is discarded, he simply prevents it from being discarded. Sopek works this way but Goval would not work in the next phase. PERIOD.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
It can't be deployed because Wesley was never discarded. That's your logic, your argument. The was no fire.

In order to deploy a tech, Wesley must be discarded, that's what Wesley states - "Discard this card to ..."

If you say that Goval works after that, then I argue that Wesley recognizes that he was discarded for long enough to trigger his ability, so the rest of his ability must continue to happen.

There is no precedent for a card to interrupt the timing of another card.

Re: Goval. I understand he has timing, but read the FAQ bit again 47. When a card states it may be played or used at any time or does not list when it may be used. It may only be used between the phases of each round.

Those are Wizkids' words, not mine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Using that logic if you use Goval to protect Varel, then since Varel was never discarded she can't cancel the attack? Is that what you are saying? Goval either works for ALL cards this way OR for NO cards - you can't have it both ways, sorry.

And yes, you conveniently CUT OFF part of what Goval's card says - he is used TO PREVENT A CREW from being DISCARDED - that is the time - when a card is to be discarded is SPECIFIC. And again, if you say use Varel, discard her, and then in the next phase, the End phase, try to bring Varel back, there is NO ONE IN THE UNIVERSE that would allow you to bring her back, period. Goval MUST be used IMMEDIATELY before a card is discarded or he DOES NOT WORK. How can you argue otherwise?!?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
"At any time" is a red herring. The timing is specified by it being a prevention effect, you're right about that. That said:

WORF: The card still performs the ACTION even if it's saved from being Disabled or Discarded. The action, full stop.

Not convinced? After all, Chekov's effect is immediate and unitary, and Wesley is not technically an action. Still, I think we can put the timing question to rest with the Phlox and Li / Crusher rulings. In those, WORF explained that prevention effects can't "interrupt" a card's text, and that "Phlox must finish his card text...before Li Nalas may disable to keep Phlox from disabling".

I get that you really want this to happen, but there's just no way around it. WORF has explicitly and repeatedly taken a hard line against exactly this kind of prevention-related effect-splitting shenanigans.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you Evan.

Jason, you were the one arguing for both ways. I was using your argument against you.

My point all along has been that Wesley can be used, a tech is deployed, and then Wesley is discarded, along with his tech, that's when Goval can be used to save Wesley.
That ruling is supported by the Li Nalas / Beverly Crusher ruling that Evan linked to.

Application of pre-existing WORF rulings isn't that difficult. It's a lot of common sense and not looking to abuse a combo. There are plenty of other combos to abuse that involve perfectly legal rule interactions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cork
msg tools
Okay, I read your ideas and the WORF and to be devil's advocate, I must respectfully decline your analogies as the wording on Beverly Crusher is VERY different then Govals - Her card says if your other crew is supposed to be discarded for any reason, you may this card instead. Very different language then Goval that uses the phrase "at ANY time" and "prevent" = he prevents it from ever happening vs her text which is a "transfer" from the activating card to hers. Again, let's think LOGICALLY and more importantly let's think FINANCIALLY (which we can all agree is Wizkids primary focus) - Why would Wizkids change the wording from Crushers card to govals UNLESS they meant it to be used DIFFERENTLY. Let's look at N'Garen and Drex as a comparison = they made the text EXACTLY so they would act the same. Language matters or why else change the text. And again, I point to what if my opponent causes me to discard Wesley - using your wording, I would have to discard Wesley and then his techs, which are now permanently separated, and then pop Goval I would only be able to save Wesley and not the techs? The same would happen to Quark too. It makes no sense it should be protect it one time one way and another way another time. Basically you are saying there is nothing to protect crew that have cards under them? lol... Like I said, we need a WORF ruling on this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Montgomery
United States
Modesto
California
flag msg tools
The Shipyard - Star Trek Attack Wing spoilers and reviews
mbmbmbmbmb
Clearly you don't want to be reasoned with. You only want it to work your way.

If Goval prevents a discard then Wesley doesn't deploy a tech to begin with because he is never discarded. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
But Goval is stated to allow effects to happen then stop the card from being discarded, that's a reaction. Crusher is a reaction. They have the exact same game effect. Different wording, same effect. Wizkids has a pattern of inconsistent wording. They can say the same exact thing 3 different ways. Why? Because 3 different people can write the cards, and they don't have a central database for all of their cards.

If Weyoun was used to prevent Wesley from being discarded, tech deploys, others go away.
If Beverley was used, tech deploys, others go away.
Same should be true of Goval, because he works EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

If you can't see the pattern of cards working exactly as Wizkids intended; and yes, I believe that I'm far more qualified to speak to that as someone who was the official preview person for 6 months, someone who worked with the company, had direct communication with people who work on STAW, then I don't see the point in continuing this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jxcorso wrote:
Okay, I read your ideas and the WORF and to be devil's advocate, I must respectfully decline your analogies as the wording on Beverly Crusher is VERY different then Govals - Her card says if your other crew is supposed to be discarded for any reason, you may this card instead. Very different language then Goval that uses the phrase "at ANY time" and "prevent" = he prevents it from ever happening vs her text which is a "transfer" from the activating card to hers.


Okay, forget Crusher, and instead look at the identical ruling I linked to which does involve the word "prevent." "You may disable Li Nalas to prevent 1 of your (crew) upgrades or Captain Card from being disabled this round. OR You may discard Li Nalas to prevent 1 of your (crew) upgrades or Captain Card from being discarded this round."

jxcorso wrote:
Again, let's think LOGICALLY and more importantly let's think FINANCIALLY (which we can all agree is Wizkids primary focus) - Why would Wizkids change the wording from Crushers card to govals UNLESS they meant it to be used DIFFERENTLY. Let's look at N'Garen and Drex as a comparison = they made the text EXACTLY so they would act the same. Language matters or why else change the text.


Lazy templating--which, from a certain perspective, makes a ton of financial sense. There are many many cards in this game that are worded differently but work the same. (Charvanek in my above post is another example!) But we know that Crusher definitely doesn't work differently from Li (and, by extension, Goval), because they were ruled to work the same.


jxcorso wrote:
And again, I point to what if my opponent causes me to discard Wesley - using your wording, I would have to discard Wesley and then his techs, which are now permanently separated, and then pop Goval I would only be able to save Wesley and not the techs? The same would happen to Quark too. It makes no sense it should be protect it one time one way and another way another time. Basically you are saying there is nothing to protect crew that have cards under them? lol... Like I said, we need a WORF ruling on this.


No, not at all. Here's how each scenario goes:

-Wesley uses his ability: As discussed above, Goval keeps Wesley in play but he doesn't interrupt the text; As such, one tech is installed, the rest are removed from the game. Wesley remains on the ship but is now useless.

-T'Kar (for example) shows up to murder Wesley: Goval (again) prevents the discard. Wesley's techs would ordinarily have been removed upon the completion of T'Kar's text (due to invalid deployment), but because he never actually left play, both he and his techs are fine.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.