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Subject: Instant Game End rss

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Mokey D Luffy
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So, even though my friends and I have played this a bunch, for whatever reason I was skimming the rules, and the wording on this caught my eye.

If a player is swapping his tiles, and he is unable to fill his hand back up to 6, does his turn continue? Does he collect from his monuments?

Or, as the wording seems to suggest, does the game just end instantly?

We had always played that the turn continues, so we played that way, and it ended up not mattering. However, I can definitely see it mattering.
 
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Rob Rob
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I beleife the turn and game both end at the moment someone cannot refill their hand. When you're in the lead, churning through the tile "deck" is a well known strategy.
 
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Mokey D Luffy
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So, if I understand your response correctly, swapping six tiles and then not being able to refill your hand to six would prevent you from collecting from your monuments.

If that is correct, it makes the decision to try to swap tiles to end the game a lot more interesting. The game we played last night went to the third tiebreak, but if the game had immediately ended without collecting from monuments, I would have won outright.
 
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Leo S.
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The game ends at the turn end.
When any end condition happens, the curent turn is still finished. This includes both actions, monument points for the current player.

Pegasus rules makes this explicitly clear.
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Chris Lawson
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Mokey D Luffy wrote:
If a player is swapping his tiles, and he is unable to fill his hand back up to 6, does his turn continue? Does he collect from his monuments?

Could you please say what version (i.e. Publisher) of the game you are playing.

I find it hard to believe the rulebook doesn't make this clear but since I don't have every version of the rules in front of me then I can't give you a page reference.

This is from the original Hans im Gluck English version from 1997.

Page 11 Game end and winner
"The game ends if, at the end of a player's turn, there are only one or two treasures remaining on the board. The game also ends when all the tiles in the bag are exhausted and a player is unable to refresh his tiles to 6. This can happen through the action Swap up to 6 tiles or at the end of a player's turn."

I think that's pretty clear.
 
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Mokey D Luffy
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xris wrote:
Mokey D Luffy wrote:
If a player is swapping his tiles, and he is unable to fill his hand back up to 6, does his turn continue? Does he collect from his monuments?

Could you please say what version (i.e. Publisher) of the game you are playing.

I find it hard to believe the rulebook doesn't make this clear but since I don't have every version of the rules in front of me then I can't give you a page reference.

This is from the original Hans im Gluck English version from 1997.

Page 11 Game end and winner
"The game ends if, at the end of a player's turn, there are only one or two treasures remaining on the board. The game also ends when all the tiles in the bag are exhausted and a player is unable to refresh his tiles to 6. This can happen through the action Swap up to 6 tiles or at the end of a player's turn."

I think that's pretty clear.


The question was not what triggers the game end. The question was whether or not the turn is completed when the game ends during a tile swap. As it appears that I have received two different answers to that, I feel better about having asked this question.

It should also be noted that this was the first "real" game that my friends and I had played. We didn't even consider the idea of a game ending in the middle of a turn before, and I don't think the rulebook has been opened much since our third time playing it.

While you may think that the ruklebook is "pretty clear", I see that you still didn't answer the actual question Also, to answer your question, we have the Mayfair edition from 2008.
 
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Mokey D Luffy
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alerce wrote:
The game ends at the turn end.
When any end condition happens, the curent turn is still finished. This includes both actions, monument points for the current player.

Pegasus rules makes this explicitly clear.


Without having seen the Pegasus rules, I will take your word for this, and appreciate the response. I am also glad to know that we were playing correctly all this time.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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The FFG (WindRider) rules are like the wording Chris reports, and I would read as implying immediately, not collecting monument points. (Strictly I looked at a late draft, not the final rules, but pretty sure that bit didn't change.) Unfortunately I don't recall it coming up on discussing rules.
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Chris Lawson
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Mokey D Luffy wrote:
While you may think that the ruklebook is "pretty clear", I see that you still didn't answer the actual question Also, to answer your question, we have the Mayfair edition from 2008.

My mistake. I gave what I thought would be enough information for you to be able to determine the answer for yourself.

Since I had a shrink wrapped copy of the Mayfair 2008 version, I opened it to see if the rules were any different. It turns out they are very close to the Hans I'm Gluck version I posted above but they are different.

Hans im Gluck 1997 wrote:
Page 11 Game end and winner
"The game ends if, at the end of a player's turn, there are only one or two treasures remaining on the board. The game also ends when all the tiles in the bag are exhausted and a player is unable to refresh his tiles to 6. This can happen through the action Swap up to 6 tiles or at the end of a player's turn."


Mayfair 2008 wrote:
Page 14 Game end and winner
"The game ends if, at the end of a player's turn, there are only one or two treasures remaining on the board. The game also ends when all tiles in the bag are exhausted and a player is unable to refresh his hand to 6 tiles. This can happen instantly when he tries to swap tiles, or when refreshing tiles at the end of his turn."


This to me suggests that Mayfair did indeed change the rules in this aspect.

According to my old E&T FAQ, I had this to say about the game end.

Quote:
Game End

Q)Does the game end if after the tile draw there are no tiles left in the bag?
A)No. The game does not finish because the bag is empty but when a player is unable to refresh his hand back up to six tiles.

Q)Does the game end immediately if a player is unable to refresh his hand back up to six tiles? For example, a player uses his first action to draw up to six tiles and there are not enough tiles available.
A)No. The game will not finish during the middle of an action or turn. Once the player has finished his complete turn and any appropriate VPs have be distributed, the game will then end. See End of a Turn for further detail.

Q)If a Monument is created during the same turn as the 8th Treasure is collected, does the game end immediately. Does the Monument get to generate any VPs this turn?
A)The game will not finish during the middle of an action or turn. Once the player has finished his complete turn and any appropriate VPs have be distributed, the game will then end. See End of a Turn for further detail.



Quote:
End of a Turn

Q)There are a number of activities which occur "at the end of a turn". What order do they happen, at what point are VPs awarded for monuments, when do you pick up treasure VPs and when are Game End conditions checked?
A)VPs are awarded during an Action for Place a Tile or due to Conflicts. Treasure VPs are collected after each Action. Monument VPs are awarded during the End of Turn activities, then the Game End conditions are checked. The full sequence is:-

•First Action (distribute appropriate VPs)
◦Collect any treasure VPs

•Second Action (distribute appropriate VPs)
◦Collect any treasure VPs

•End of Turn Activities
◦Collect VPs generated by monuments
◦All players refresh their hands back up to six tiles
◦Check to see if the game has finished
◾Are there only one or two treasures left on the board?
◾Was a player unable to refresh their hand to six tiles any time during the turn?


The FAQ can now only be found on the Wayback Machine here...
https://web.archive.org/web/20151225224541/http://freespace.virgin.net/chris.lawson/rk/e-t/faq.htm

My reading of the Mayfair rules suggests that the game end has changed in that the game does instantly end when a player is unable to draw the appropriate number of tiles from the bag.

I vaguely remember discussing this with Reiner but I can't remember for sure if it was this exact point. Maybe Christopher Dearlove can help as I know he did some work with the latest FFG version of the rules.

Bottom line. Use whatever version you wish.
Originally, the game would only end at the conclusion of a player's turn.
With the Mayfair version, the game could end in the middle of a player's turn.

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Martin G
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See also:

game ending on tile swap

and:

End of game question
 
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Mokey D Luffy
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I will ignore what seemed like a pretty condescending start in that response, and instead concentrate on the rest.

If Mayfair did indeed change the rules, then that is interesting, and also lends support to my being a bit confused. The two threads that were linked show people on both sides that are very certain in their interpretations on the rules, which is the same as what I saw when I was searching through rules threads before posting this.

I do appreciate getting confirmation that a rule was changed, so now we can either try to figure out what the most current rule from FFG is, or just choose which way we want to play and play that way every time. We always try to follow the rules in games, to play them correctly and as intended.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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I will ignore what I think misinterpreted Chris's attitude. And in any case this isn't a symmetric position. You want the answers, we're doing the work. We don't have to.

I was involved in the latest FFG (now Windrider) rules. But I don't actually recall this coming up - although I did go through Chris's FAQ list. The biggest issue was getting buildings, and at least one tricky gameplay situation right (unlike previous rule sets) so something I'd thought was established didn't get my main attention.

I could try digging into an email chain. But I'm not motivated enough to do so when I think it will be fruitless.

Quoting from the current ruleset:

Quote:
The game ends when either of the following conditions are met:
‡ Only one or two treasures remain on the board at the end of a player’s turn, or
‡ A player who is attempting to draw a tile is unable to because the bag is empty.
At this point all players lower their screens.


(That's it, the rest is about end of game scoring.)

Clearly we're talking about the second bullet, the first is clear. But only the first has the end of turn comment in it. Otherwise we are left with attempting to draw a tile and at that point is unable to do so.

Based on that, and without claiming any privileged position, I would interpret that as that you don't finish your turn, and the game stops immediately. In particular no monument points.

But also note that it's attempting to draw a tile that's not there that doe it. Which means you could trade to exactly empty the bag, get monument points, let another player have a turn, but be pretty sure that they will be the only player to get a turn. (In fact there's absolutely no reason they would let it be otherwise.)

So my reading of the FFG rules matches the Mayfair rules. Which is not surprising, as that's where FFG started. (Including the utter mess Mayfair made of Reiner's original building rules. We improved even on those, but they were better than Mayfair butchered them too.)

Was this change carefully planned and made by Reiner? Not as far as I know. However it's possible that it was. I've seen changes of this sort in game rules both for that reason and by accident. Here I'd guess accident, but I'm just guessing. (Some things however were carefully done. There was a situation that - as a thread on the Geek discussed - the actual wording of previous rules led to a possible perverse interpretation. That the rules no longer permit that interpretation is not an accident.)
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Mokey D Luffy
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I appreciate your quoting directly from the newest version of the rules. I interpret that the same as you do, and that expect that we will play that way moving forward.

Thanks again.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Dearlove wrote:
Was this change carefully planned and made by Reiner? Not as far as I know. However it's possible that it was. I've seen changes of this sort in game rules both for that reason and by accident. Here I'd guess accident, but I'm just guessing. (Some things however were carefully done. There was a situation that - as a thread on the Geek discussed - the actual wording of previous rules led to a possible perverse interpretation. That the rules no longer permit that interpretation is not an accident.)

I'm pretty sure I remember discussing this with Reiner before the turn of the century, shortly after the 1997 Han im Gluck release (well before there were any plans for a Mayfair release).

The question was, when should the game end if there weren't enough tiles left in the bag. There are three obvious options.
(i) Game ends instantly.
(ii) Game ends after completing the action.
(iii) Game ends after completing the turn.

I seemed to remember we discussed mostly options (i) and (iii) at the time. As such, the game was fine no matter what the choice was and the discussion was just to clarify what the rule should be.

I preferred option (iii) myself because the Game End condition could be cleared defined as being part of the End of a Turn procedure. The discussion resulted in the wording I used in the FAQ. It also had the advantage that it was what was in the rulebook (or at least, that was what the original rules seemed to imply).

I also seemed to remember that Reiner wasn't 100% sure about this and while he originally went with option (iii), he still considered that option (i) might be preferable.

My guess that when the Mayfair edition was created, he took the opportunity to change the rule so that the game ended immediately (i.e. option (i)).
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xris wrote:
I also seemed to remember that Reiner wasn't 100% sure about this and while he originally went with option (iii), he still considered that option (i) might be preferable.

I understand his point of view, if the game goes on and there is still the second action to be chosen, the player will not be able to choose the swapping tiles option again.

So this would require an additional clarification somewhere in the rules, saying that this action may not be available (and then explain why and the endgame condition, before all the rest of the game)... Much more elegant if the game ends immediately.


EDIT/ OK, reading the post below I realize that it would then be trying to draw back to 6 and being unable to do it twice in a row... So the action would be available twice, but you would trigger the endgame twice... Still more elegant to end immediately!
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Chris Lawson
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franchi wrote:
xris wrote:
I also seemed to remember that Reiner wasn't 100% sure about this and while he originally went with option (iii), he still considered that option (i) might be preferable.

I understand his point of view, if the game goes on and there is still the second action to be chosen, the player will not be able to choose the swapping tiles option again.

So this would require an additional clarification somewhere in the rules, saying that this action may not be available (and then explain why and the endgame condition, before all the rest of the game)... Much more elegant if the game ends immediately.

I'm pretty sure that didn't come up in our discussions so I think that wasn't part of his reasoning.

Don't forget that the game doesn't end just because the bag is empty of tiles. For example, if the bag contains exactly 6 tiles and the player swapped 6 tiles, then the game wouldn't end at that point. The game only ends because you can't swap all the tiles you want.

In other words, it's perfectly valid to try and swap tiles even if there are no tiles in the bag. There never had been additional clarifications to explain this. Even now when the game instantly ends if you can't swap the tiles, the situation can still arise where there are no tiles in the bag and the game hasn't yet ended.

You would still need to spend an action to swap tile in the this situation, even if there are no tiles to swap!

But I'm just second-guessing here. Interesting point all the same
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Christopher Dearlove
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xris wrote:
You would still need to spend an action to swap tile in the this situation, even if there are no tiles to swap!


Or just do anything that will use at least one tile. It's rare that you can't to your advantage. But it can happen - all leaders forced off board and few red tiles. And then you probably will want the game over.

(Useful discussion, thanks.)
 
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