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Subject: Cthulhu Wars crossover rules - "final" thread rss

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Claus Appel
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The Gods War/Cthulhu Wars Crossover Rules
By Adam Starks, Philip Dale and Spectrum (Claus Appel)
Playtested and compiled by Spectrum


This thread is an offshoot of Adam's thread. I decided to make my own thread so I can use this post to hold the rules that I personally consider "canon", and we can keep Adam's thread as a discussion. Without further ado, here are the crossover rules that I recommend. If you have questions, comments or criticism, please do post either here or in Adam's thread.

General
* For purposes of Cthulhu Wars rules such as Capture, Minions count as Cultists; Heroes and Lesser Gods count as Monsters; Greater Gods count as Great Old Ones.
* For purposes of Gods War rules, Acolyte Cultists count as (Mortal) Minions; High Priests count as (Mortal) Heroes; Monsters count as Lesser Gods; Great Old Ones count as Greater Gods.
* For purposes of CW spellbooks such as Dreams and Zingaya plus spellbook requirements, any Mortal with a cost of at most 1 counts as an Acolyte Cultist. Any Mortal with a cost of 2+ counts as a Cultist but not an Acolyte.
* CW factions need six spellbooks in order to win the game.
* All CW factions have this Unique Weakness: Alien Intelligence: You do not benefit from the Glorantha Boost. You cannot lead the Great Compromise. For each Alien Intelligence faction in the game, roll two fewer dice for Chaos Rift Strength.

Setup and Areas
* These rules assume that the Glorantha map is used.
* CW factions start with 8 Power and nothing on the map. (Credit: Adam Starks.)
* Both Hell areas are considered to have Yellow Sign's Ring Glyph, the Skydome areas have its Chevron Glyph, and all Land Areas have its Scratches Glyph. (Credit: Adam Starks.)
* If Windwalker is in the game, then Rhan-Tegoth can be Awakened in either the Hells or the Heavens, Ithaqua must replace a Gate in either the Hells or the Heavens, and a gate must exist in both the Hells and the Heavens in order for Windwalker to receive their Spellbook for there being a gate in the area with their Glyph that they did not start in. (Credit: Adam Starks.)
* Cthulhu must be Awakened in the ocean. When Cthulhu is first Awakened, place the Great Cthulhu faction marker in that Area. This now counts as Great Cthulhu's starting Area, and Cthulhu can only be re-Awakened here.
* CW factions cannot move Kylerela.

Optional Rule: They walk unseen and foul in lonely places
* During the first Action Phase of the game, CW factions may Recruit Cultists and Summon Monsters anywhere on the map, Gate or no Gate.

Gates and Buildings
* Gates count as Shrines for purposes of GW rules (including Storm's Insurgency and Runes such as Heat and Plant).
* During Conquest a CW faction may turn a Shrine into a Gate or destroy it.
* During Conquest, a Gloranthan faction may turn a conquered Gate into a Shrine or destroy it. (You may even Battle the "neutral" player to destroy or conquer an Abandoned Gate.)
* Building Gates from scratch still costs 3 Power. (For the purposes of rules that depend on the building's cost, this is the number that counts.)
* Gates may coexist with Chaos Nests but not with other buildings.
* A Chaos Nest gives Power if it shares area with a Controlled Gate, but not an Abandoned Gate.
* For the purposes of CW spellbooks such as Y'ha-nthlei plus spellbook requirements such as Great Cthulhu's "four ocean Gates exist", any building counts as a Gate.

Optional Rule: Chaos Nest Conquest
* CW factions may turn a conquered Chaos Nest into a Gate.
* Gloranthans may turn a conquered Gate into their own cheapest building type.
* An area may contain two "classes" of buildings (Gates, Chaos Nests, normal buildings) but not three.
* A Chaos Nest gives Power if it shares area with a Controlled Gate, but not an Abandoned Gate.

Capture
* See the section "General" above.
* CW factions can Capture Gloranthan Minions as if they were Cultists.
* Gloranthan factions can Capture CW Cultists and sacrifice them as usual.
* Gloranthan factions cannot Capture other Gloranthans.
* Temples guard against Capture as if they were Monsters; Ziggurats as if they were Great Old Ones.

Optional Rule: Hostage Exchange
* Gloranthan empires may Capture Cultists (but not other Gloranthan Units).
* These Cultists are not sacrificed during the Power Phase but stay on the Gloranthan empire sheet as "hostages" until the owning CW faction has a Captured Unit from this empire to "exchange".
* The Gloranthan player must accept the hostage exchange. Both Units return to their owner's Pool. They are not sacrificed, so neither faction gains Power.
(Credit: Philip Dale)

Movement and Hell
* Movement for CW factions is unchanged: 1 power per unit moved, and multiple units can be moved simultaneously, regardless of where they are or where they’re going. CW factions cannot use Travel Arrows, and need no permission to exit Hell, but must still exit into the Gates of Dawn. (Credit: Adam Starks.)
* CW factions may leave Hell freely.

Combat, Pain and Rout
* All factions can declare battle even though they roll zero dice.
* All Pains are turned into Routs. Routs follow GW rules. All CW abilities that refer to Pain should be translated to "Rout".
* A CW faction that has 6 spellbooks can Battle as as Unlimited Action.

Runes and Elder Signs
* CW factions can use Runes as normal.
* Elder Signs and Runes follow the rules. If the rules say you get an Elder Sign (e.g. from awakening Great Cthulhu), you get an Elder Sign. If the rules say you get a Rune (e.g. from Black Market), you get a Rune.
* Players may freely give away their Elder Signs.

Doom Points and Rituals of Annihilation
* During the Council Phase, CW factions earn VP for their Gates as per CW rules.
* You may use the optional rule Holocaust of Ecstasy and Freedom or you may use regular Rituals of Annihilation, or both. (If you use both, a CW faction may in each Council Phase perform one Ritual of Annihilation OR Shout, Kill and Revel in Joy, not both in the same Council Phase.)
* When you use the optional rule Holocaust of Ecstasy and Freedom, the Holocaust marker is incremented for killed Units only, not buildings.
* Whenever you perform a Ritual of Annihilation or a "Shout, Kill and Revel in Joy", you must select one other player. That player draws an Elder Sign from the bag.

Chaos Rift Struggle
* CW factions are "Chaotic" in the sense that they do not lose units to the Chaos Rift and add their dice to the Rift's strength.
* CW factions do not get Runes from the Chaos Rift. Only the Chaos empire gets this due to their Catastrophe gift.
* It is strongly recommended that non-Chaotic factions outnumber Chaotic factions. I.e., use at most one Chaotic faction in a 4-player game and at most 2 Chaotic factions in a 5-player game.

Optional Rule: Scaled-Down Great Old Ones
* All "main" faction Great Old Ones cost 3 less Power than in Cthulhu Wars standard rules. (Cthulhu costs 2 Power after the first time.)
* All "main" faction Great Old Ones roll half their normal combat dice, rounded DOWN.
* The King in Yellow and Rhan-Tegoth (the "lesser" faction Great Old Ones) are unchanged.

(Scaled-Down Great Old Ones swings the balance in favour of CW factions. If you do not use it, consider letting CW factions start with 4 more Power to compensate.)

Optional Rule: Holocaust of Ecstasy and Freedom

* Every Cthulhu Wars player has a Holocaust marker which starts at zero. (Put it on the Doom track.)
* Whenever you Kill, Capture or otherwise eliminate enemy units, increment your Holocaust marker by half of each Unit's Power cost, rounded up for each Unit. (If in doubt, see two-player rules for clarification.
* You get points for destroying Gloranthan buildings or turning them into Gates, but not for taking existing Gates.
* In the Doom/Council phase, CW factions may choose either to perform a traditional Ritual of Annihilation or they may "Shout, Kill and Revel in Joy" (but not both).
* "Shout, Kill and Revel in Joy" costs the same as a Ritual of Annihilation and increments the Ritual marker. You gain Doom equal to the position of your Holocaust marker.
* At the end of each Doom phase, reset all Holocaust markers to zero.

FAQ/disambiguation
* Crawling Chaos's Madness lets him choose where any player's units Rout to, including his own.
* Darkness's Fear takes precedence over Madness where applicable.
* Sleeper's Ancient Sorcery can be used to steal a Gloranthan faction's ability.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Reference the Chaos Rift, 2 fewer dice per CW faction. 4 player game with two CW factions and 2 GW factions would end up with zero dice rolled for Chaos Rift. Is this correct?
 
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Adam Starks
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I don't think CW factions should be able to Recruit Cultists or Summon Monsters anywhere on the map if they lack a gate. For one, they can easily step off a gate at the start of their action, and technically have no gates, then summon a monster anywhere, then step back on the gate. For two, every other Gloranthan faction requires a Building to summon any units.

Instead, it should be the same rules as Cthulhu Wars: if you have no units on the map, you can recruit an Acolyte anywhere. Otherwise, you can only recruit in areas where you have units, and you can only summon in areas where you control a gate.

Also, why leave King in Yellow and Rhan-Tegoth unchanged? This means that Cthulhu only costs 2 to re-awaken, AND gets you an Elder Sign, AND he still has Devour, which is crazy powerful, as opposed to the King in Yellow, who now always costs 4, has no Combat, and has to go through a lot of steps to gain the ability to generate Elder Signs. It also means Rhan-Tegoth is more expensive than Ithaqua. What about a blanket reduction of 3? The King would cost 1 (which might make up for the fact that most areas in Glorantha will have buildings by the end of turn 3), Cthulhu would cost 7 the first time (but still 4 after that), Shub-Niggurath would cost 5, etc.

BTW, thanks for putting all this together
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Claus Appel
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Grumsh wrote:
Reference the Chaos Rift, 2 fewer dice per CW faction. 4 player game with two CW factions and 2 GW factions would end up with zero dice rolled for Chaos Rift. Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct. If you have two "Cosmic" factions against two "Chaotic" factions, then the Cosmic factions quickly become underdogs. This is somewhat balanced out by making the Rift easy to close.

I do not recommend playing 2 CW factions against two GW factions. That seems wrong to me.

AdamStarks wrote:
I don't think CW factions should be able to Recruit Cultists or Summon Monsters anywhere on the map if they lack a gate. For one, they can easily step off a gate at the start of their action, and technically have no gates, then summon a monster anywhere, then step back on the gate. For two, every other Gloranthan faction requires a Building to summon any units.

Instead, it should be the same rules as Cthulhu Wars: if you have no units on the map, you can recruit an Acolyte anywhere. Otherwise, you can only recruit in areas where you have units, and you can only summon in areas where you control a gate.

That rule was introduced in order to make CW factions more dangerous in the first turn. If they can only Recruit Cultists, then they are easy to fight off and not dangerous at all in the first turn. If they can pop Monsters anywhere in the first turn, that makes them more dangerous. But you are right that it contains a loophole since abandoning and reclaiming a Gate is a free unlimited action. Taking that to heart, I have revised it into this:

Optional Rule: They walk unseen and foul in lonely places
* During the first Action Phase of the game, CW factions may Recruit Cultists and Summon Monsters anywhere on the map, Gate or no Gate.

AdamStarks wrote:
Also, why leave King in Yellow and Rhan-Tegoth unchanged? This means that Cthulhu only costs 2 to re-awaken, AND gets you an Elder Sign, AND he still has Devour, which is crazy powerful, as opposed to the King in Yellow, who now always costs 4, has no Combat, and has to go through a lot of steps to gain the ability to generate Elder Signs. It also means Rhan-Tegoth is more expensive than Ithaqua. What about a blanket reduction of 3? The King would cost 1 (which might make up for the fact that most areas in Glorantha will have buildings by the end of turn 3), Cthulhu would cost 7 the first time (but still 4 after that), Shub-Niggurath would cost 5, etc.

As for Cthulhu: I think it's OK to make him slightly OP. Glorantha has a significantly lower ocean-to-non-ocean ratio than Earth, which weakens several of Cthulhu's spellbooks (including Submerge). A cheap Cthulhu counterbalances this.

As for the King in Yellow: He seems balanced enough, so I see no reason to change him. The only thing is that he is (like many Great Old Ones) very vulnerable to Sky's Call to Justice. But I want to leave him alone for now. If it comes up during play that he is underpowered, we can adjust him.

As for Rhan-Tegoth: I have never played him. I don't have the Windwalker expansion, so it is inconvenient for me to playtest it. I don't want to touch him without knowing what I am doing.

AdamStarks wrote:
BTW, thanks for putting all this together



PS: I have also updated the rules for Capture (as per my recent comment in Adam's thread).
 
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Adam Starks
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SpectrumDT wrote:
That rule was introduced in order to make CW factions more dangerous in the first turn. If they can only Recruit Cultists, then they are easy to fight off and not dangerous at all in the first turn. If they can pop Monsters anywhere in the first turn, that makes them more dangerous. But you are right that it contains a loophole since abandoning and reclaiming a Gate is a free unlimited action. Taking that to heart, I have revised it into this:

Optional Rule: They walk unseen and foul in lonely places
* During the first Action Phase of the game, CW factions may Recruit Cultists and Summon Monsters anywhere on the map, Gate or no Gate.

I guess I'm just not sure why they need to be dangerous the first turn. After all, Dark is sequestered in Hell until Turn 2, and the other factions generally won't have armies on Turn 1. What was the specific problem this rule was addressing?
 
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Claus Appel
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AdamStarks wrote:
SpectrumDT wrote:
That rule was introduced in order to make CW factions more dangerous in the first turn. If they can only Recruit Cultists, then they are easy to fight off and not dangerous at all in the first turn. If they can pop Monsters anywhere in the first turn, that makes them more dangerous. But you are right that it contains a loophole since abandoning and reclaiming a Gate is a free unlimited action. Taking that to heart, I have revised it into this:

Optional Rule: They walk unseen and foul in lonely places
* During the first Action Phase of the game, CW factions may Recruit Cultists and Summon Monsters anywhere on the map, Gate or no Gate.

I guess I'm just not sure why they need to be dangerous the first turn. After all, Dark is sequestered in Hell until Turn 2, and the other factions generally won't have armies on Turn 1. What was the specific problem this rule was addressing?

I felt it made the game more fun. Now it's listed as optional, so feel free not to use it.
 
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