Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Frail rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Connor Lennon
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Last night we hunted a gorm for the first time. I attacked with paired hollow swords which are frail and hit a super dense location. Rule states that if you attempt to wound archive the weapon. Because my survivor only had the hollow swords I didn't attempt a wound roll in order to save the weapons. What should I have done here? Archive both weapons or just one? Or did I play it right? Let me know so we can get it right next time around.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hugh Jorgan
msg tools
lennoncc wrote:
Last night we hunted a gorm for the first time. I attacked with paired hollow swords which are frail and hit a super dense location. Rule states that if you attempt to wound archive the weapon. Because my survivor only had the hollow swords I didn't attempt a wound roll in order to save the weapons. What should I have done here? Archive both weapons or just one? Or did I play it right? Let me know so we can get it right next time around.


whether you archive one or both is a bit tricky, but you can't opt not to wound.

Even though a hit and wound are two separate rolls, they're technically one attack. Thematically, you wouldn't try to hit something with a sword and then try to hit it again to wound it. The first roll determines if that attack is accurate enough to hit and the second roll determines if that same attack was powerful enough to wound, you can't opt out of it once the HL card is drawn. I believe some Super Dense locations state that only if you successfully wound, do you archive your gear.

Whether to archive one or both?
I'd say one. One HL card corresponds to a wound attempt from one weapon, two attacks can't target the same HL card as far as I know.
In the future, when attacking with paired weapons, I'd suggest making two separate rolls (concurrently), one for each weapon and drawing HL cards and separating them for each weapon. You might get into a situation where you draw two Super Dense HL cards from the same attack. This way, if you draw two Super Dense HL cards for the right hand and one normal HL card for the left hand, you could say that only one of your weapons would be archived.
Likewise, if you draw one Super Dense HL card for the left and right hand, you'd archive both.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Trewartha
Australia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Definitely don't just choose not to wound. You have already attacked and get the consequences whether they are good or bad.

Good question about paired frail weapons. I think the way paired is worded (that you add your speed from the second one to the main one) that you would lose the main weapon but not the second one. It also says in the frail rules that if you attempt to wound a super dense location that you archive the card at the END of the attack, so if you pulled two super dense locations at once then it would still just break the main one at the end of the attack (after all HLs were resolved). So I don't think you should or need to roll the dice from each weapon separately.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Onyx
msg tools
Paired says you add the speed of a second weapon, not that you use both (and definitely that they make two separate attacks). You would lose one.
Also, choosing not to attempt a location is an illegal move. You can attempt to trigger reactions that would cancel your attack, but otherwise you're stuck with it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alessio Massuoli
Italy
Terni
Umbria
flag msg tools
They await the King
badge
The Snarky Sloth
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You should destroy only the first one, not both. Paired means you attack with one, adding the speed of the other.

When you draw the HL, you already have hit the super dense location, so you have to archive the gear anyway, regardless if you wound or not. So, by not rolling to wound, you are actually giving up the chance of doing something useful with the gear you are already discarding.

Besides, when you hit, you must roll to wound. If you don't, most hl cards are meaningless (with the reactions and all).

All the sense this game has is due to the fact that you can lose everything at a moment's notice, so you have to plan and micromanage- don't play it to keep everything, it is really an incomplete experience.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ArtSchool
Spain
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I am not that sure that you don't lose both. As per the KDM's FAQ:

"When a survivor has duplicates of a frail weapon in their gear grid, do the duplicates lose "frail?"

No. Duplicate weapons lose all benefits (p.45, Core Game Book). Frail is not a benefit."

So, what would having both weapons as "frail" at the same time mean then? Would you need to hit at least 2 superdense location in a single attack to lose both?

Besides, even though "paired" seems to just increase the weapon speed, thematically it feels like you double your attacks precisely because you are allowed to attack using both weapons simultaneously, not just the first one (oh, I got 2 katars, so I am 2x faster with the first one because I put the second in my pocket -that makes no sense). I do not see that the game is meant to separate the rolls from each weapon to determine which one(s) hit the super dense location.

Should we apply the "rule of death here"? 2 weapons lost...

In any case, we all agree that choosing not to wound is not a legal option, so at least one of the two should be lost.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alessio Massuoli
Italy
Terni
Umbria
flag msg tools
They await the King
badge
The Snarky Sloth
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, the specification about frail was needed because sometimes it was useful to use the "second" paired weapon in order to not trigger the paired benefits (since the second paired weapon actually loses paired, you attack with it at half speed, it could be useful for example against the Butcher).

On the other hand,

Living Glossary wrote:
Paired
A gear special rule. Paired weapons are two identical weapons that can be used as one. Add the speed of the second weapon when attacking with the first. These weapons must have the same name, and both must be in your gear grid.


The wording here leaves no doubt. You attack with just one of the two (the first, since the second will have lost all benefits as a duplicate weapon does).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Kellner
United States
California
flag msg tools
t3clis wrote:
Well, the specification about frail was needed because sometimes it was useful to use the "second" paired weapon in order to not trigger the paired benefits (since the second paired weapon actually loses paired, you attack with it at half speed, it could be useful for example against the Butcher).


This. Technically, only one of your two "paired" weapons actually gains the speed bonus or any other bonuses from being paired. So if you have two lion beast katars you can either attack with one that has a speed of four and the deadly special rule or you can attack with one that only has speed two and does not have deadly. Since the offhand weapon of a pair loses benefits but it can sometimes be helpful to attack with it anyway, it was a necessary clarification that frail is not a benefit.
So, yes, you would lose one, but only one, of your swords. Unless, as others have said, you could use reactions from other HLs drawn in the same attack to try and negate your own attack. For extra special tomfoolery, you could even try surging with another survivor to see if you could get more HLs to choose from for this purpose.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Death Jester
msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
That is gamey... both weapons are frail and attacking at the same time in a real life sense. You hit a Gorm in the spine and they break. I know some of you are sticklers for the defined rules but it seems silly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Patrick
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I always viewed it as swinging both weapons, hence the speed doubling. So a single 2 speed katar is basically you swinging it twice, while swinging both katars would be a total of 4 swings. If you hit a dense location, it's just hitting with one of the weapons. They aren't both hitting each location drawn. So I'd only break 1 of them, but I'm not sure what I'd do if I pulled more than 1 dense location. Maybe break the other if over half the locations were dense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alessio Massuoli
Italy
Terni
Umbria
flag msg tools
They await the King
badge
The Snarky Sloth
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DeathJester23 wrote:
That is gamey... both weapons are frail and attacking at the same time in a real life sense. You hit a Gorm in the spine and they break. I know some of you are sticklers for the defined rules but it seems silly.


First case in point, if for some bad life choice you end up swinging two hammers hitting a nail and the nail utterly crushed your first hammer, there is only a very restricted number of dimwits that would think "hey, let's do this again! Nothing bad can possibly happen to the other, identical hammer!"

Second case in point, this game is balanced (more or less), and is balanced to give players a hard time at least. If the rules state something that is in the minimal part beneficial, you take it, say "thank you sir" and keep playing while looking decently ashamed.

(Of course, the tone of this reply is playful )
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Trewartha
Australia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DeathJester23 wrote:
That is gamey... both weapons are frail and attacking at the same time in a real life sense. You hit a Gorm in the spine and they break. I know some of you are sticklers for the defined rules but it seems silly.


You are swinging multiple times and hitting in multiple locations though. You don't just swing both weapons at the spine. It is entirely plausible for one to hit a hard spot and get broken while the other hits something sifter and does damage. Same as if you crit a spot that causes a negative token to the monster you don't say that both swords hit that spot and give it double the negative modifier.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.