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Subject: On Arminianism rss

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Greg
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This version of Christian thought probably falls closer in line to what you have seen before.

The framework generally builds off of the foundation of this passage:

Quote:
(1 Timothy 2) "3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."


They take the "all people" here in the above to literally mean everyone without exclusion. God genuinely desires to save everyone.

Other support for this idea can be found here:

Quote:
(2 Peter 3) "9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."


So again we see a picture of a Deity that genuinely desires everyone to be saved.

So how does he attempt to do this?

Quote:
(John 12) "32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”


The Arminian holds that, after He raised His son, God is drawing all people to himself. How? As it says here:

Quote:
(Acts 2) 17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh... 21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’


And as Paul says here:

Quote:
(Acts 17) "26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us."


God has designed the places and times that you and I would enter history, and did so in such a way that we might reach out and find him. But actually he isn't far from anyone. Unlike the Calvinist position, God uses his sovereign power, not to people's detriment, rather to their benefit.

Quote:
(Matthew 28) "19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”


Some of Jesus's last recorded words included the command to the disciples to go out to all the nations and teach people about him.

And as John says:

Quote:
(John 20) "30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."


The bible was written with the intent for you to believe it and have life in Jesus's name.

So if God wants to save everyone, if he is sending out his spirit on all flesh, if he is drawing all people to himself, if he is not far from anyone, if he designed the time when you would live, and if he is omnipotent and never fails, why are not all people convinced in the message of the Gospel that he has sent out into the world?

Unlike Calvinism, Arminianism posits that God's grace is resistible:

Quote:
(Acts 7) 51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.


And:

Quote:
(Hebrews 3) "7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice 8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness"


Since the application of grace is done through the draw via the Holy Spirit, men can and do resist this inner call unto damnation. They do so of their will. So the Arminian would say it like this. A person can resist the Gospel message. Those that do not resist it, believe it entirely aided by the grace of God. So a man is not saved simply because he doesn't want to be. Not because God doesn't. And God is entirely responsible for men believing because all the vessel does it no resist.

But is not God failing then? Well look at this:

Quote:
(Matthew 23) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!"


Here Jesus rebukes Jerusalem stating how often over the ages that he wanted to gather them together and be their God, but that did not happen because they were unwilling. This supports the idea that God's desire, even though he could force and manipulate it to happen, does not do so at the expense of violating peoples' will.

So what about predestination?

Arminians usually hold to a corporate view of election and will state that God knows all the choices everyone will make and therefore the number of saved and lost people has not changed since day one, just like the Calvinist. But instead of God just arbitrarily picking people out of hat to set his love on, and pass over the rest, God instead sets his love on all and truly provides a way for all to come because he genuinely wants all to come.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the bible. Start listening to K-Love and Air1. Tune your Podcasts to the Defender's Class of Dr. William Lane Craig. Ask God to reveal himself to you and he will because he wants to save you. He loves you.
 
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David Dearlove
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Phate999 wrote:


So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the bible. Start listening to K-Love and Air1. Tune your Podcasts to the Defender's Class of Dr. William Lane Craig. Ask God to reveal himself to you and he will because he wants to save you. He loves you.

Sorry there is no voice in my heart. Are you schizophrenic?
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Moshe Callen
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When a person claims to save people who are not in any danger apart from that person becoming angry, what do we call that?
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B Schneider
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The hangover from a bronze and iron age superstion. It is telling that someone like Bill Craig can make a whole career out of "apologetics" - the need to bring order out of the incoherent and self contradicting mess that is the bible.

If you TRULY believe, you must look around yourself and see the vast majority of people are destined for eternal damnation. And possibly yourself as well, but only you can know really that. What a bleak and terrible view of the world. I feel sorry for you.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
When a person claims to save people who are not in any danger apart from that person becoming angry, what do we call that?
Fascism.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Phate999 wrote:

Arminians usually hold to a corporate view of election and will state that God knows all the choices everyone will make and therefore the number of saved and lost people has not changed since day one, just like the Calvinist. But instead of God just arbitrarily picking people out of hat to set his love on, and pass over the rest, God instead sets his love on all and truly provides a way for all to come because he genuinely wants all to come.
How can we be saved if our fate is predetermined?

How can there be a way to change our fate if it cannot be changed?
 
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Phate999 wrote:
So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the bible. Start listening to K-Love and Air1. Tune your Podcasts to the Defender's Class of Dr. William Lane Craig. Ask God to reveal himself to you and he will because he wants to save you. He loves you.


I rather suspect listening to those radio stations and podcasts would make me much less likely to become a believer.
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Jasper
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Oh come on. Arminius' ideas were soundly defeated at the synod of Dordt by Gomarus and his contra-remonstrant ilk. Altough his flexibel (reckeleyk) approach to Calvinism always found a welcome among the higher educated and burgher elites in the following century or so, the debate / power struggle was always won by the side of the strict (precies) approach and it's popular and orangist advocates.

So, in the light of Calvinism, I'm sure we can safely label Arminius as non-canonical and even heretical.
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whac3 wrote:
When a person claims to save people who are not in any danger apart from that person becoming angry, what do we call that?


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G Rowls
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whac3 wrote:
When a person claims to save people who are not in any danger apart from that person becoming angry, what do we call that?


The Incredible Hulk?
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Kelsey Rinella
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How can we tell the difference between you and any of the many confidence scam artists who would also prefer we view their claims uncritically?
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Daniel Edwards
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Phate999 wrote:


......

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the bible. Start listening to K-Love and Air1. Tune your Podcasts to the Defender's Class of Dr. William Lane Craig. Ask God to reveal himself to you and he will because he wants to save you. He loves you.


Listening to this guy makes me more atheist by the sentence. As well as reinforcing my desire to have the power to choke people through a computer / TV screen.
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Richard Keiser

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rinelk wrote:
How can we tell the difference between you and any of the many confidence scam artists who would also prefer we view their claims uncritically?


THEY WERE NOT DISPATCHED BY GOD TO DO HIS BIDDING.
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Richard Keiser

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Well, he did answer my prayers for my fantasy football team's win, yesterday.

So, I have proof of the troof.

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Ron Preisach
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von wildensee wrote:

The hangover from a bronze and iron age superstion. It is telling that someone like Bill Craig can make a whole career out of "apologetics" - the need to bring order out of the incoherent and self contradicting mess that is the bible.

If you TRULY believe, you must look around yourself and see the vast majority of people are destined for eternal damnation. And possibly yourself as well, but only you can know really that. What a bleak and terrible view of the world. I feel sorry for you.


Yes. Phate999, you have my pity.
 
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Sam I am
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Craig does a good job bending philosophy in knots and calling it "science". Reality and real science has rendered philosophy into a crappy major that only stoners study. It was great when actual knowledge was limited but in today's world it is no more that a framework for intellectual discussions, not a way to resolve them.

Most of the time when he speaks I'm waiting for interjections about tachyon fields, flux capacitors or wibbly wobbly timey thingy's.
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William Farnum
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http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/A%20Defense%20of%20Cal...

This explains it pretty well for me. Once j found this it became pretty clear.

As for all the ridiculers. I always find it funny the people that ridicule those who try to persuade someone to their beliefs as if you don't hold to beliefs that you would want to share. Unless you possess all the knowledge that is possible to possess then you can never claim "God doesn't exist". Perhaps God resides in the knowledge you do not yet possess and you simply haven't aquired that knowledge yet.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the tanak.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the qur'an.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the rig veda.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the kojiki.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the zend avesta.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the tipitaka.

So in conclusion, if you an unbeliever, I would encourage you to stop resisting the voice in your heart and read the necronomicon.

My voice keeps telling me to call off sick and play boardgames, but I have to resist and do the right thing.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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knucklesamwich wrote:
Perhaps God resides in the knowledge you do not yet possess and you simply haven't aquired that knowledge yet.
Yes, and maybe a god exists that doesn't match anything mankind has imagined because they haven't acquired the necessary knowledge yet. Using your argument, no one can have faith or draw a line anywhere.
 
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Richard Keiser

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knucklesamwich wrote:
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/A%20Defense%20of%20Cal...

This explains it pretty well for me. Once j found this it became pretty clear.

As for all the ridiculers. I always find it funny the people that ridicule those who try to persuade someone to their beliefs as if you don't hold to beliefs that you would want to share. Unless you possess all the knowledge that is possible to possess then you can never claim "God doesn't exist". Perhaps God resides in the knowledge you do not yet possess and you simply haven't aquired that knowledge yet.


Perhaps God's 1/existence resides in the knowledge you do not yet possess and you simply haven't realized that knowledge yet.

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Wendell
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Not sure that BGG - even the RSP forum - is the best place to actually seek to convert people to a religion other than boardgaming.
 
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William Farnum
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I don't see that. I see that there should be a question in your heart and mind about why I am here. A question about how this world works so perfectly that it could not have happened by accident. The current philosophies on how a big ball of nothing exploded and created everything that is so fitly put together fall woefully short.
 
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Wendell
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knucklesamwich wrote:
A question about how this world works so perfectly that it could not have happened by accident.


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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knucklesamwich wrote:
The current philosophies on how a big ball of nothing exploded and created everything that is so fitly put together fall woefully short.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean your philosophies of a god that "that works so perfectly he/she/it could not have happened by accident, but why is he/she/it here?" don't fall equally short. I'm not sure you could come up with an argument that could convince me that a vengeful and vain creator that has always existed being necessary to explain the "start" of the Universe is any more believable than a Universe that has always existed and doesn't need a creator. Just because we don't have the knowledge to explain how it would happen doesn't mean that knowledge isn't here to be found. No one has sold me on why the Middle Man theory is necessary. I am content with saying "I don't know".
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David Dearlove
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knucklesamwich wrote:
I don't see that. I see that there should be a question in your heart and mind about why I am here. A question about how this world works so perfectly that it could not have happened by accident. The current philosophies on how a big ball of nothing exploded and created everything that is so fitly put together fall woefully short.

What do you mean by accident? There is very little accident in evolution for example.
Also a tiny (initially infinitely small) singularity containing everything exploded not a big ball.
If you are going to criticise something it is probably a good idea to study it a little.
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