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MBT (second edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: 4.1.4.1.3 Building Hexes rss

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B. B.
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According to the rule 4.1.4.1.3 (p. 8) any vehicle located in a Building hex is actually occupying Alley type terrain. So it gets Light cover.

Is this true too, if the vehicle is on a Road in a Building hex and if the vehicle will be attacked along the road?

Example: The T-80 in the following picture fires at the M1 Abrams. The M1 Abrams is in the middle of the road (but in a Building hex). According to the rule 4.1.4.1.3 the M1 Abrams gets Light cover for Alley terrain. Right?

It does not feel right, because the T-80 and the M1 Abrams are on a straight road and there cannot be Buildings or such in the way to justify the Light cover. It could be Overwatch Fire too by the T-80 versus the M1 Abrams moving with the Road speed on the road. Why should the M1 Abrams get Light cover for being in the middle of the road?



 
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Jefferson Krogh
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I think it's because we can't assume the road is perfectly straight over the 400m depicted in your example. It could bend a bit, or have waggles that aren't shown due to the map style.
 
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B. B.
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But we have to assume that the road is perfectly straight. Otherwise a shot would be not possible at all, because the Buildings in hex M4 would block the line of sight.
 
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Brian Scott
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I don't think we should picture this as the Abrahms necessarily being right smack in the middle of the road. It could be hugging the edge of the road near the buildings or using the corner of a building for partial cover. Light cover is only a quite small effect, so it wouldn't take much to imagine a tank in that situation being able to gain some marginal cover benefit from the nearby structures.
 
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Nadir Elfarra
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TheRealKid wrote:
But we have to assume that the road is perfectly straight. Otherwise a shot would be not possible at all, because the Buildings in hex M4 would block the line of sight.


You're trying too hard to mix two different parts of the rules. The LOS is open because the center dots can be connected without crossing blocking terrain - that's it. The _terrain_ the tank occupies offers it light cover. That's it. The two issues don't conflict with one another.

-N
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Jim Day
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Jefferson, Brian, and Nadir, you all have captured the intent. The M1 Abrams has light cover.
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B. B.
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I know what the ruling is. I only say that it is not quite logical.

Assume it's the Movement Step and the M1 moves with the increased Road rate on the road from the bridge hex K5 to the building hex L4. Before he is able to move to the next building hex M4, the player of the Soviets interrupts and declares Overwatch Fire with the T-80. Then the M1 is currently on the road and isn't searching for any cover. Otherwise he could not use the increased Road rate. The T-80's Overwatch Fire comes directly along the road and nothing blocks the line-of-fire - neither in M4 nor in L4. So I think, at least it is questionable why the M1 should get Light cover.
 
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Kev.
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TheRealKid wrote:
I know what the ruling is. I only say that it is not quite logical.

Assume it's the Movement Step and the M1 moves with the increased Road rate on the road from the bridge hex K5 to the building hex L4. Before he is able to move to the next building hex M4, the player of the Soviets interrupts and declares Overwatch Fire with the T-80. Then the M1 is currently on the road and isn't searching for any cover. Otherwise he could not use the increased Road rate. The T-80's Overwatch Fire comes directly along the road and nothing blocks the line-of-fire - neither in M4 nor in L4. So I think, at least it is questionable why the M1 should get Light cover.

how many pages of rules do you want to have that.... ?
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Nadir Elfarra
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TheRealKid wrote:
So I think, at least it is questionable why the M1 should get Light cover.


The map is not a precise representation of terrain - nothing would conform to hexes if it were. It's an abstraction - in any real European village there are often twists/turns/curves in the road, buildings that jut out into the street or public squares, etc. There may be abandoned civilian vehicles on the road, etc.

-N
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B. B.
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I understand what You are saying and I agree about the abstractions of maps, but then You have to argue that the same is true for the Building hex M4 and the line-of-fire would be blocked at all, but it isn't.


Assume the Building hexes in the example were Woods. Does the M1 get cover for being in Woods terrain then?
 
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Adrian Hague
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Naturally, you are free to house-rule the game.
 
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Mark Russo
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hipshot wrote:
how many pages of rules do you want to have that.... ?

Yeah, seriously getting tedious
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Nadir Elfarra
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TheRealKid wrote:
I understand what You are saying and I agree about the abstractions of maps, but then You have to argue that the same is true for the Building hex M4 and the line-of-fire would be blocked at all, but it isn't.


Assume the Building hexes in the example were Woods. Does the M1 get cover for being in Woods terrain then?


Some war-games take the position you describe in your opening paragraph above - any city/town hex blocks LOS. MBT takes a more granular approach, however, and assumes that _some_ lines of sight exist through such hexes, however (not always - the road is the thing that enables it).

To answer your later question, if the road was through woods rather than town hexes, yes, the M1 would benefit from being in a woods hex.
 
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Are You sure about Your answer about getting cover from Woods when being on a Woods/Road hex? Where is that mentioned in the rules? I didn't find such a rule for Wood/Road hexes like 4.1.4.1.3 for Building/Road hexes. There is nothing like the Alley rule for Woods. Do You really think that a vehicle on a Heavy Woods/Road hex gets Heavy cover?
 
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Jim Day
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TheRealKid wrote:
Are You sure about Your answer about getting cover from Woods when being on a Woods/Road hex? Where is that mentioned in the rules? I didn't find such a rule for Wood/Road hexes like 4.1.4.1.3 for Building/Road hexes. There is nothing like the Alley rule for Woods. Do You really think that a vehicle on a Heavy Woods/Road hex gets Heavy cover?

Reference section 4.1.4.1.7 Woods Hexes, 3rd paragraph. Yes, they get the benefit of the cover. Roads/Path list other for cover. So, it's the other terrain in the hex.
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mongoose27 wrote:
Reference section 4.1.4.1.7 Woods Hexes, 3rd paragraph. Yes, they get the benefit of the cover.


What do You mean? There is no rule about vehicles getting cover when they are on a Road/Woods hex in 4.1.4.1.7.

4.1.4.1.7 Woods Hexes
Light Woods and Woods hexes represent stands of trees that provide cover for vehicles. Vehicles may never enter Heavy Woods hexes unless on a Road or Path.
Light Woods and Woods hexes both have a Height of 3, while Heavy Woods hexes have a Height of 4 above ground level; they may block line-of-sight.
Roads and Paths in a hex negate the blocking effects for units spotting along a straight line into or through a Woods hex.
Note that vehicles in Light Woods or Woods hexes are actually at the ground level of the terrain not up at the maximum Height of the terrain.


mongoose27 wrote:
Roads/Path list other for cover. So, it's the other terrain in the hex.


That's not true for Road/Building hexes. There a vehicle gets Light cover for Alley terrain even if in a Stone Building hex which provides Heavy cover.
 
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Kev.
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TheRealKid wrote:
Are You sure about Your answer about getting cover from Woods when being on a Woods/Road hex? Where is that mentioned in the rules? I didn't find such a rule for Wood/Road hexes like 4.1.4.1.3 for Building/Road hexes. There is nothing like the Alley rule for Woods. Do You really think that a vehicle on a Heavy Woods/Road hex gets Heavy cover?

prolly need to read on a bit further mate its there.
 
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