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Subject: Closing a Stall & Overflow - The rules are confusing as written rss

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Bryan Thunkd
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The rules state "A stall is considered full when the worker count plus overflow from adjacent tiles equals four or more." That's a little confusing because it doesn't explain exactly what it means by "the overflow".

At first I thought it meant that if the overflow arrow points towards a stall it's closed even if the worker count didn't equal four or more. Then I thought it might mean that the arrow counted as one worker. It's just confusing until you read the section where it explains that tourists move from a closed stall to an open stall in the direction of the overflow arrow. Overflow is just moving tourists in. You don't need to reference the overflow at all to determine if a stall closes. You just need to check the worker count after the overflow happens.

This would make a lot more sense if they rewrote the original quoted sentence to say "A stall is considered full when the worker count equals four or more"? You don't need to reference overflow here at all. And it avoids all the confusion about what overflow means.

Later on you can explain overflow, and mention that "If the overflow brings the worker count to four or more, the stall closes."


Or am I still not understanding the rule correctly?

 
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Dustin Schwartz
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Each overflow arrow pointing toward a stall reduces (by 1) the worker count needed for the stall to close.

Example F on page 5 is meant to illustrate this: 3 assistants plus overflow from 1 adjacent stall is enough to close a stall.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
Each overflow arrow pointing toward a stall reduces (by 1) the worker count needed for the stall to close.

Example F on page 5 is meant to illustrate this: 3 assistants plus overflow from 1 adjacent stall is enough to close a stall.
After looking at a couple of the examples, I believe you are correct. I skipped over the examples in my initial read through, assuming erroneously that all the relevant rules would be explained in the main text.

It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow increases the worker count by one.
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Dustin Schwartz
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Thunkd wrote:
FreedomGunfire wrote:
Each overflow arrow pointing toward a stall reduces (by 1) the worker count needed for the stall to close.

Example F on page 5 is meant to illustrate this: 3 assistants plus overflow from 1 adjacent stall is enough to close a stall.
After looking at a couple of the examples, I believe you are correct. I skipped over the examples in my initial read through, assuming erroneously that all the relevant rules would be explained in the main text.

It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow increases the worker count by one.


"A stall is considered full when the worker count plus overflow from adjacent tiles equals four or more."

Overflow arrows are NOT the same as worker count (this is important when doling out rewards for scoring a stall), but they do contribute toward the closing of a stall.
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Bryan Thunkd
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
FreedomGunfire wrote:
Each overflow arrow pointing toward a stall reduces (by 1) the worker count needed for the stall to close.

Example F on page 5 is meant to illustrate this: 3 assistants plus overflow from 1 adjacent stall is enough to close a stall.
After looking at a couple of the examples, I believe you are correct. I skipped over the examples in my initial read through, assuming erroneously that all the relevant rules would be explained in the main text.

It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow increases the worker count by one.


"A stall is considered full when the worker count plus overflow from adjacent tiles equals four or more."

Overflow arrows are NOT the same as worker count (this is important when doling out rewards for scoring a stall), but they do contribute toward the closing of a stall.
Sorry... I amend my statement to "It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow reduces the worker count needed by one."

The fact that they don't actually state that is very confusing.
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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Thunkd wrote:
Sorry... I amend my statement to "It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow reduces the worker count needed by one."

The fact that they don't actually state that is very confusing.


When you say "they" you in fact mean me, as I wrote most of the rulebook. This portion was a bit tricky to explain. Like worker count, overflow is a variable; it increases by 1 for every overflow arrow directed at a stall.

Still, my hope is that Example F and Example K are the linchpins to help buttress the explanation and handle most interpretation questions around this rule.

I'm glad that you asked the question, though, for the sake of anyone else who would have similar doubts about the rule.
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Bryan Thunkd
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FreedomGunfire wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
Sorry... I amend my statement to "It would have been nice if they had actually explicitly stated anywhere that each overflow arrow reduces the worker count needed by one."

The fact that they don't actually state that is very confusing.


When you say "they" you in fact mean me, as I wrote most of the rulebook.
Ah, I didn't realize you had written it. Yes then, you should have written a statement somewhere in the rulebook that explicitly states that the overflow arrow reduces the worker count needed to close a stall. Without that explicit statement it's terribly confusing.

FreedomGunfire wrote:
This portion was a bit tricky to explain. Like worker count, overflow is a variable; it increases by 1 for every overflow arrow directed at a stall.
That's a weird way of saying it. Don't make overflow a variable. There's no reason for it. It's not that tricky to explain at all... just say something like this:

"After playing your worker, check to see if any stalls are now full. A stall is considered full when the worker count equals four or more. Each overflow arrow pointing to a stall decreases the worker count needed to close the stall by 1."

When worded that way we don't have to track an overflow total or variable at all. We replace a nebulous "Overflow" concept that's never explicitly defined, with references to something concrete, "overflow arrows", and we include a clear statement of how they impact the worker count calculation (something that isn't clear in the actual rulebook).

FreedomGunfire wrote:
Still, my hope is that Example F and Example K are the linchpins to help buttress the explanation and handle most interpretation questions around this rule.
Examples are great for clarifying rules... but if the rule doesn't adequately explain the rule on it's own then you have a problem that you need to fix. Players shouldn't have to rely on examples. And after reading the examples, a player should be able to return to the rule and be able to see how the rule was complete and adequate, even if they needed the example to understand it. When I return to the statement about overflow, even after I understand how it works, I still feel that the way it was written isn't complete or clear. Thus you're relying on an example to define the rule, not just clarify it. That's not good.

FreedomGunfire wrote:
I'm glad that you asked the question, though, for the sake of anyone else who would have similar doubts about the rule.
Me too.
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Ole Heide
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I have a similar question about overflow, so i post it here:

If the Overflow reduces the count of Workers needed by one, does that also meen, that a Stall to wich 4 Overflow Arrows points is full? and if there are no tourists it will be counted with zero points for everybody?
 
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Dustin Schwartz
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Berelon wrote:
If the Overflow reduces the count of Workers needed by one, does that also meen, that a Stall to wich 4 Overflow Arrows points is full? and if there are no tourists it will be counted with zero points for everybody?


Correct. If a stall with no workers present were to receive a 4th overflow arrow, it would immediately close and be scored. Since nobody had workers present, nobody would receive any rewards, and the active player would then place an empty stall tile (its orientation wouldn't matter, since all adjacent stalls would already be closed).

If a stall gets to the point that it receives overflow from 2-3 adjacent tiles, I suspect that there will be a lot of jockeying among the players to get workers in that stall.
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