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Victory in Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: British Romanian areas in Poland rss

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Larry Thomann
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This is how we interpreted the rules; were we correct?

German (CM3) attack west Kreigsmarine keeps the BEF out of France, conquers Belgium, Picardy and Champagne, and in the East, the Germans liberate Danzig.
Diplomacy 3-39: Axis gets Hungry, Allies win Romania.
4-39 France falls.
Romanian Army marches into Lvov.
2-40 Poland Falls.
Diplomacy 2-40: Axis get Bulgaria.
3-40 Romania Falls to Bulgarian Army that did not miss with some German help. All of Romania is now Axis controlled.

Is the Carpathian Republic (Lvov) still a Western Ally area that the Soviets cannot enter?

"Long Live the Carpathian Republic!"
 
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Ron Draker
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Wow, fascinating situation. Your read is correct. I know it can be gamey that Germany might leave the area alone to deny the Soviets access later, but I'm not sure it's worth the extra rules to handle rare exceptions such as this.
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Larry Thomann
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Keep the rule. It is clear and easy to understand. "Long Live the Carpathian Republic!"
 
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Mark Kwasny
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I'm not sure this fits the rules. The "Conquest of Minors" rule says: "The victor controls all areas of the minor power except those enemy-occupied." So when German-allied Bulgaria conquered Romania, all areas of the conquered minor become controlled by the conquering nation. Yes, that could be interpreted to mean just inside the minor itself, but why? It does not say "all areas of the minor power within its original borders." It says all areas of the minor power - and Lvov is an area of that minor power. I think the rules pretty clearly state that Lvov reverts to Bulgaria/German control at this point.
 
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juerg haeberli
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Was this an actual serious game ?

If yes....just out of curiosity how did one ground unit, a Me109 and a leader take Belgium-)Champagne-)Picardie ?
Were the French on Holiday or on troop parades in Paris ?

How does the Kriegsmarine keep the BEF out of France ?
If the BEF starts in Belfast it can always SR to France.

Very interesting opening.
I start to understand why so many think its easy to win for the Axis.
If I only could duplicate that in my games. sigh
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Ron Draker
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mvkwasny wrote:
I'm not sure this fits the rules. The "Conquest of Minors" rule says: "The victor controls all areas of the minor power except those enemy-occupied." So when German-allied Bulgaria conquered Romania, all areas of the conquered minor become controlled by the conquering nation. Yes, that could be interpreted to mean just inside the minor itself, but why? It does not say "all areas of the minor power within its original borders." It says all areas of the minor power - and Lvov is an area of that minor power. I think the rules pretty clearly state that Lvov reverts to Bulgaria/German control at this point.


The problem with this interpretation is that it requires people to remember what areas are conquered by each minor ally since the control markers are generic. Britain could have flown a bomber to Lvov and it would have been clearer situation.
 
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Larry Thomann
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Serious game.

Pocket Battle Ship (3)C1+1, ME109 (3)A2, airborne (1)C1, infantry (4)D2, Leader (2)D1
Round one; two hits with Air and Naval. Belgium misses, everyone else finishes the flagging fighter in Flanders. The Blitz to Champagne.

Champagne; German Dive Bomber and armor (3)B2, (3)C2 get two hits.
The remaining French (2) D2 and (2)D1 get one hit.
Round two; Dive bomber and armor get two hits. French miss, everyone else from Flanders finishes off the Frogs, then Blitz to Picardy.

Battle of Picardy one round:
The Germans: (3)B2, (2)C2, (4)D2
The French (2)D1, (1)D1

Roll it for yourself. More often than not the Germans Get three hits.

Built up the Armor, Leader, Infantry and Airborne.
In 4-39 Germans hit Paris with (3)B2, (3)C2+1, (2)C1, (4)D2, (4)D2, (1)D1.
What can the French have in Paris? A hand full of D1's
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Larry Thomann
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There are three control markers Axis, Soviet, and Western Allies.

Axis controlled areas are Axis, not German, Italian or axis allied Neutral.
Soviet controlled areas are Soviet not Russian or Soviet allied Neutral.
Western Allied controlled areas are Western Allied, not British, French, American or Western allied Neutral.

I just like to keep the rules simple and keep from needing extra markers. We let the controlling player determine each turn where a resource will be used. Most often it has been the French taking Italian resources and giving them to British.

"Long Live the Carpathian Republic!"arrrh
 
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Mark Kwasny
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lathomann wrote:
Serious game.

Pocket Battle Ship (3)C1+1, ME109 (3)A2, airborne (1)C1, infantry (4)D2, Leader (2)D1
Round one; two hits with Air and Naval. Belgium misses, everyone else finishes the flagging fighter in Flanders. The Blitz to Champagne.

Champagne; German Dive Bomber and armor (3)B2, (3)C2 get two hits.
The remaining French (2) D2 and (2)D1 get one hit.
Round two; Dive bomber and armor get two hits. French miss, everyone else from Flanders finishes off the Frogs, then Blitz to Picardy.

Battle of Picardy one round:
The Germans: (3)B2, (2)C2, (4)D2
The French (2)D1, (1)D1


I think you may have made a mistake here. The German leader used 1 step to blitz from Belgium into Champagne. And then the leader used his second step to initiate a second round of combat in Champagne. I do not believe the Germans could have then blitzed into Picardy.
 
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Larry Thomann
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Blitzing units can start 1 new battle, or reinforce 1 contested
area. Either battle must be resolved immediately. Reinforcements (4.4)
always arrive one round late.
 
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Mark Kwasny
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lathomann wrote:
Blitzing units can start 1 new battle, or reinforce 1 contested
area. Either battle must be resolved immediately. Reinforcements (4.4)
always arrive one round late.


True, but the one new battle is only for one round. To fight a second round, the leader has to expend another step.
 
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juerg haeberli
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Hey Larry,

If I understand this correctely you attacked Belgium and Champagne during the movement phase of 3-39.

It seems France defended Champagne with 4d2 and 2d1.
This seems to be a mistake.
In Chamagne there should be 4d2, 2x2d1 and 2b2AF on defense.

In Pic I miss a Battleship and spitfires on defense.
Maybe the Kriegsmarine blocked the BB.

All in all the pocket battleship card or one of the 2 Blitzkrieg cards gives the best chance ( almost 50 % of a first combat round kill against Belgium ) to take Belgium against allied intervention.
With the above described defense Champagne should hold aginst all possible attacks. ( with the exception of really hot dice with the Axis and cold dice with the Allies )
Should now the Allies have the 3 CP card ( or even if they have it in your example ) the western attack will be delayed for at least a turn since the Allies will pin Belgium ( or Champagne and Picardie in your case ).
This is the reason I will never open with the 3 CP card.

So I assume the Axis won this game ?
 
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Mark Kwasny
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haeberich wrote:


It seems France defended Champagne with 4d2 and 2d1.
This seems to be a mistake.
In Chamagne there should be 4d2, 2x2d1 and 2b2AF on defense.

In Pic I miss a Battleship and spitfires on defense.
Maybe the Kriegsmarine blocked the BB.


I do not believe there is any one best defense for France. First, the French could not have their AF in Champagne on that first turn, the two French air set up in Lyons and Paris. Now the Allies could move the air into Champagne in their first turn, but it will only arrive as a reinforcement in the second round.

Also, I do not like putting ships on the coast as either side in this game. Much too easy to get it trapped. A British BB in Picardy could be permanently eliminated on the next turn. The Germans slip a sub into the Channel and southwest North Sea and land attack Picardy. If the Germans win, the BB is permanently out of the game. Not a risk I want to run. Now if there are British ships in those sea zones, the Germans probably do not have the Commands to do all of that, but if the British navy is split between 3 or more areas,they open Britain (especially if the Allies are messing around with Italy as well).

And sending the BEF and Spitfires into France on turn 1 is really asking for Germany to eye England itself (which will be empty at that point of land units). With large German units and their leader operating along the coast, Britain has to worry more about keeping Germans out of England than overloading France, again especially if the Allies have foolishly mucked around with Italy.

All in all, the Allies are very vulnerable in those opening 2 turns.
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Larry Thomann
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The Axis did win. Capturing Egypt, holding Paris, and taking London
 
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juerg haeberli
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I believe in a best defense of France.

It is quite obvious that Champagne is the decicive area ( followed by Belgium ) during 3-39 so max. defense should be positioned there.

You are right about the AF.

The BEF and spitfires can go to France without problem if the Allies dont leave a naval invasion route open for 4-39.
Of course the Allies send nothing to Italy and only attack it under very rare and special circumstances.

Dont use a British BB use the Jean Bart.

Yes the Allies are weak which is the reason you have to make the best use of what you have.
 
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juerg haeberli
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Wow....impressive win.
Sadly in our games the Axis is hard pressed for victory.
Either we do something wrong with the Axis or something right with the Allies.
 
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Larry Thomann
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No, I still loose at least 3 out of 4 times with the Axis.
If the Axis get a bad card draw, they're toast.
 
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Mark Kwasny
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The Allies can be plagued by bad cards as well. That 0CP Sitzkrieg card can be a disaster!
 
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juerg haeberli
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Larry
Our track record is 1 win in 12+ games for the Axis.

Mark
My only win with the Axis was against a badly played Sitzkrieg card which made a sea lion possible.
Fazit: Play the Sitzkrieg card in 4-40 to keep England out of trouble.
 
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Mark Kwasny
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I usually feel safer playing Sitzkrieg in 1-40 Winter. It might imperil France, but usually does not endanger Britain or the USSR. By 4-40, Germany could be geared up for either! And 4-40 is not winter in those border regions in the east outside of the USSR.
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juerg haeberli
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Britain is not in danger since the next turn is a winter turn.
In our games the Axis is usually far from ready do DoW the Soviets in 4-40.

If you play Sitzkrieg during 1-40 you have to make sure that you control the relevant sea zones during 4-39 to avoid invasion of Britan during 2-40 but most of the time the Axis is to busy with France anyway.
 
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Larry Thomann
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haeberich wrote:
Larry
Our track record is 1 win in 12+ games for the Axis.

Mark
My only win with the Axis was against a badly played Sitzkrieg card which made a sea lion possible.
Fazit: Play the Sitzkrieg card in 4-40 to keep England out of trouble.


I have 4 wins that were remember-able with the Axis.

1. Sinking British Battleships that were defending France, with German (D3) Infantry (mistake by the Allied player)
2. First time 3-39 Smashing of Soviet (soviet player did not defend well)
3. Taking undefended Baku with Turkey and sinking soviet navy with a Turkish army unit and 1 point Italian sub sitting in the Black Sea(diplomacy mistake by soviet player)
4. And with the Carpathian Republic arrrh holding off the soviets the Italian Navy and German Navy sunk everything British that floated. Combat and convoy.

I normally loose when there is a Russian Leader, 3 step airborne, 4 step fighter, and a combination of Tanks, Shock armies, and large infantry units in Berlin.
But, If the Axis makes it to '45 I would shoot Hitler, surrender to the western allies and push the Soviets back to the '39 start line for a NATO team win.
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juerg haeberli
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How can you smash Soviets during 3-39.
It's not even theoretically possible to reach Moscow during 3-39 with the exception if you have aid by the Soviets and even then you have one ground unit at best which should have zero chance to take Moscow.
 
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Larry Thomann
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haeberich wrote:

How can you smash Soviets during 3-39.
It's not even theoretically possible to reach Moscow during 3-39 with the exception if you have aid by the Soviets and even then you have one ground unit at best which should have zero chance to take Moscow.


should have said, "Did well in 3-39"
Took Minsk, Smolensk, Keiv, Bryansk.
Moscow fell 2-40
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