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Alien vs Predator: The Hunt Begins» Forums » General

Subject: Marines op? rss

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Paco Pérez pozanco
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Marines have much damage tools and tactics, and the best cards in my group have never lost , we played with rules 2.0 and the contents of the box , with missions and always win.

Op are the Marines? how to cope when doors are locked or ducts ?
 
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Shirley T
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Is it possible you are not playing the rules correctly? The rules can be confusing, and if you allow things like shooting from within an engaged tile (not actually allowed) it can throw the game toward a shooty faction.
Note: edits in bold. I goofed whistle
 
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Paco Pérez pozanco
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dougisitosan wrote:
Is it possible you are not playing the rules correctly? The rules can be confusing, and if you allow things like shooting from an engaged tile (not actually allowed) it can throw the game toward a shooty faction.


We played right , the marine plays very defensive , shooting everything and put a door to keep out before that closed all kinds of pipe , really, it is not that we can play with aliens and predators , in our case the player marine is destroying us .

Whenever I play predator and it is very difficult now being 2 in the campaign and each wound by letter, environment , acidic blood becomes very difficult.

Any suggestions ? I need help
 
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daruk rojo
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dougisitosan wrote:
Is it possible you are not playing the rules correctly? The rules can be confusing, and if you allow things like shooting from an engaged tile (not actually allowed) it can throw the game toward a shooty faction.

why can not shoot in a engaged tile? this is from 2.0 rule book


the marines are good but not op, a hunter with plasma can eliminate them easy, and the armor of predator never worst than 12 is good to get closer with only 1 wound.

aliens is a little harder. you need go to melee early a stalker run 3 tiles can be the best option, try to do that when smart gun is activated
 
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Steven Noyes
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Quick question: How are you playing the "Sentry" rule?
 
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Paco Pérez pozanco
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popsical wrote:
Quick question: How are you playing the "Sentry" rule?


Examine:

Player alíen move 2 tiles.
Player marine move 1 tile and 1 sentry.
Player predator move 1 tile before complete actions, marines shooting on predator.
 
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Shirley T
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daruk_el_rojo wrote:
dougisitosan wrote:
Is it possible you are not playing the rules correctly? The rules can be confusing, and if you allow things like shooting from an engaged tile (not actually allowed) it can throw the game toward a shooty faction.

why can not shoot in a engaged tile? this is from 2.0 rule book


the marines are good but not op, a hunter with plasma can eliminate them easy, and the armor of predator never worst than 12 is good to get closer with only 1 wound.

aliens is a little harder. you need go to melee early a stalker run 3 tiles can be the best option, try to do that when smart gun is activated

That clearly says "FROM an Engaged Tile" not WITHIN an engaged tile. It is from page 27 in the section titled: Shooting through Engaged Tiles No where does it imply that you can shoot a model on the same tile as you.

Here's why:

Definition of Ranged Combat (Pg 26): Any kind of combat allowing Models to attack one another over the distance of a couple of Tiles is called Ranged Combat and requires a successful Ranged Skill (RS) Test.
Definition of Close Combat (pg 27): Any kind of combat that allows Models to fight and attack one another while being Engaged with one another is called Close Combat and requires a successful Close Combat Skill Test.

The underlined sections make it very clear that there is no ranged combat inside an engaged tile. If you are fighting within an engaged tile, this meets the definition of ANY KIND OF COMBAT, and is therefore Close Combat. Abstractly, a marines may still be firing a weapon, but he/she is disadvantaged because of the proximity of the enemy. This is EXACTLY why rules like POINT BLANK SHOT exist.

Now, You may fire INTO an engaged tile from another tile at a -10, sure. But remember, the title of this section (on pg 27) is the key to this distinction: "Making a Ranged Attack at Engaged Models" not "Making a Ranged Attack within an Engaged Tile". The same goes for your example of Shooting through Engaged Tiles and it's -2 modifier.

The rules don't go to great lengths to state these limitations (and they aren't immediately obvious).
 
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Shirley T
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Arkanish wrote:
dougisitosan wrote:
Is it possible you are not playing the rules correctly? The rules can be confusing, and if you allow things like shooting from an engaged tile (not actually allowed) it can throw the game toward a shooty faction.


We played right , the marine plays very defensive , shooting everything and put a door to keep out before that closed all kinds of pipe , really, it is not that we can play with aliens and predators , in our case the player marine is destroying us .

Whenever I play predator and it is very difficult now being 2 in the campaign and each wound by letter, environment , acidic blood becomes very difficult.

Any suggestions ? I need help


Aliens should have the advantage of numbers (and hence, more actions); Predators should have the advantage of Armor and wounds. Just because a marine has sentry doesn't mean he can mow down everything in one turn.

You can't charge headlong at the marine player and hope to win. You need to split him up, or otherwise draw his attention in multiple directions to disburse his fire. He is slow. Exploit this against his/your objectives to cover more ground. Capitalize on what the "third" player is also doing to distract the marine to get them to fight while you achieve your goal.

If you have to kill them as an alien: Come from different directions and close the gap AFTER he is out of actions to swarm him and lock him to a tile (see my post on Close Combat) and exploit infested tiles to buff your armor saves until you pounce... Try to draw him to you.

If you have to kill them as a Predator: Strike where they are weakest and from range (if you are able). Preds can also lock up Marines by Engaging them too. Just be careful that you BOTH don't get swarmed by an opportunistic alien player.

Either way, Engaged tiles are MURDER for Marines... no good can EVER come of them. It is your job to choose the right tile to lock them down and deny the objective. Be patient and use your cards to force the issue.
 
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Jacob Carter
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Also you need a very good understanding of what units are good against others.

For instance the Predator Hunter absolutely eats Marines for breakfast, you get it so you can activate him early in a round and so he is shooting at 3 Marines, he is almost guaranteed 2 kills (As the constant Marine player for my group, he is the only Predator I worry about). However, the Predator Warrior with the combi-stick is next to useless against Marines since he will have to charge through a tremendous amount of firepower if the Marines have good positioning. The Smart-disc Predator is right in the middle of the 2, he can be an effective against Marines, but he requires clever positioning.

Aliens on the other hand are more straightfoward, Infants are your killing force, and Stalkers are what you use to complete objectives/fill up occupancy on engaged tiles.
 
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Paco Pérez pozanco
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the problem is only 2 predator , cards marines powerful , put doors, million aliens attack, dies 1 Predator and fucked .
Best combination ? Hunter + SmartDisk ?

Thanks
 
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Shirley T
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Arkanish wrote:
the problem is only 2 predator , cards marines powerful , put doors, million aliens attack, dies 1 Predator and fucked .
Best combination ? Hunter + SmartDisk ?

Thanks

You are all over the place with this one: "put doors" this won't slow a predator much; "million aliens attack" cuts on both sides (are you the Predator DIRECTLY between the alien and marine player? If so, then you are placing your units terribly, and a predator cannot afford to do this.) Don't sacrifice your predators by jumping between BOTH enemy players, maybe? Are you now only worried about how to use the predators? It's unclear what faction you are now asking for advice.

You seem to want an easy answer for a problem you don't understand. We cannot tell you how to play as the predator and the alien for every eventuality. There are nine unique missions, and two factions you are worried about. So that's 18 potential strategies you need to uncover. This is basically a tactical miniature game and not a simple boardgame. Each player has to use his resources in radically different ways, and take advantage of the board layout too. The alien and predator cards are just as powerful (if not as direct) as the marines cards, use them wisely to impede/distract/attack when you are ready.

I believe you are taking a direct approach toward the enemy regardless of faction. Patience, opportunity, and distraction will pay dividends to a good player. Have you played any other tactical miniature games before, this may be a source of your frustration?
 
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Steven Noyes
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Use stalkers to run into marine held sections whilst your infants advance at slower run. Use air ducts to help get stalkers into position for the sprint. You dont need to CC just occupy the same section as the marines. Sentry isnt that great versus the stalkers and face huggers as they are either fast or can hide in vents before the dash.
Preds, plasma is your best as said earlier. Patience is the key, let the marines advance and then time your attacks to coincide with junctions and alien attacks.
Ive found most games to be very close for every side, and that even included 1st edition rules.
Trick is to play to the strengths of your faction. Aliens have numbers and are quick, use this to make shots tricky by forcing shots thru occupied tiles. Preds, patience, wait till the poop hits the fan and step in, just like the movies. Marines, slow and steady, cover and sentry to force the enemy into mistakes.
Just practice, you'll get it.
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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Hey folks

Each of the factions has it's own strengths and weaknesses. The game is designed to be a three-way battle. It is only reasonable, if one player decides to play defensive and lets the other two kill each other, the win will be with the passive player.

By default, the Aliens faction plays an offensive role, with it's major advantage being numbers of cheap survival units (Stalker/Hugger). Once you get them engaged, the Marine goes to alot of trouble to remove them.

The Marines are quite the "anti-horde" faction, purely shooty army. They risk every time they move

The Predators have a very nice configuration, to cope in both melee and ranged, with tools for each task, but tend to be outnumbered and in the end, numbers count. Their high strength and special weapons make them really good versus the Marines (especially Hot Plasma and Discs).

A fairly balanced game would see the Marines trying to push back the Aliens trying to get to their own objective, while the Predators use Hunters to thin the Marine numbers, and aliens try to catch a pred or two and fully engage the tiles.

So, I would say, Marines have advantage over Aliens, Aliens on Predators and Predators on Marines, when three players play. When you are on a 1v1 you can tailor your force accordingly. I suggest you get your hands on add-ons. It's a very telling experience

If you're on Facebook, join up the official gaming group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/1027030660685651/

For rules questions, you can use the active e-mail avprules@prodosgames.com

The team and I would appreciate the feedback for the second version.


Also:
Please note that due to the known office demon, 2.0 has some errors and ommissions in it (for example, Sentry guns rules are not mentioned!) and we are expecting to receive 2 extra documents: 1 errata document for 2.0 (for anyone who printed) and a corrected 2.1 document (in essence, it will apply the errata).

In regards to the discussed issue above, about shooting modifier penalties:

When shooting at an engaged target (so, if your target counts as ENGAGED), regardless of where your model is, you get -10RS.
When shooting from/through an engaged tile, you get a -2RS cummulative. One of the "errata" is that in this paragraph, the words "at another tile" are missing. So, "When shooting through (and yes, from within counts as through) an engaged tile AT ANOTHER TILE" you get -2.

So, if you are shooting in your own tile, you get only -10 (not -12).

Cheers I hope I've helped a bit.

P.S. I am sorry, I am not very active in bgg, but I reply quite fast via facebook or the rules e-mail. I love to do it, but I also have to make a living eh?
P.S.2 As also explained in the post http://prodosgames.com/blog/avp-20-ruleset-released I am a gamer and AvP fan, not a Prodos employee (although I would love to be heheh )
 
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Shirley T
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GenChron wrote:
In regards to the discussed issue above, about shooting modifier penalties:

When shooting at an engaged target (so, if your target counts as ENGAGED), regardless of where your model is, you get -10RS.
When shooting from/through an engaged tile, you get a -2RS cummulative. One of the "errata" is that in this paragraph, the words "at another tile" are missing. So, "When shooting through (and yes, from within counts as through) an engaged tile AT ANOTHER TILE" you get -2.

So, if you are shooting in your own tile, you get only -10 (not -12).

Cheers I hope I've helped a bit.


This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that I can shoot at a model on the same tile as my model? The language of the rules directly contradict this idea (see definition of close combat and Point Blank shot in my above post). Honestly, the rules seem like they were never handed to an outside party to be tested for logical errors. Rules like this should SPELL OUT what is allowed and what is not allowed by players.
 
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Jacob Carter
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Seriously? How does that not make sense? It honestly makes perfect sense to me. You have to weigh risk/reward for taking a shot at something that is on your tile, ESPECIALLY when you are the Marines. Do you want to try to shoot an alien point blank with your higher strength rifle, but have to roll a 4 or lower; or do you want to use your weaker knife which has a higher chance to hit but a lower chance to actually cause a wound.

My buddies have always played where you can shoot into your own tile and unless the rules SPECIFICALLY state you cannot due this, we are going to continue to play this way. We have never had any balance issues with playing this way as it is such a small element of the game.
 
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Steven Noyes
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To be honest, if the marines can shoot at an enemy in the same tile they will never close combat. The rules on so many issues are so unclear its crazy. I can never get to grips with the flamer rules for shooting at mixed occupancy tiles either. Too much doesnt make clear sense. Basically we must all interpret stuff whilst playing. Cant ever see this game having organised comp play.
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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dougisitosan wrote:
This makes no sense to me.

It will, once you change your point of view

dougisitosan wrote:
Are you saying that I can shoot at a model on the same tile as my model?

Yes. The weapons/actions that cannot be used on your own tile specificaly say so (for example, Burning Inferno).

dougisitosan wrote:
The language of the rules directly contradict this idea (see definition of close combat and Point Blank shot in my above post).

I have read your comment. This is a generic description to familiarize the players with the general concepts. You have underlined the "a couple of Tiles" section. If you take it too literaly, then one could argue you cannot shoot at a distance of 1 or 3 Tiles...
Instead, change your point of view. Read the text as an introduction to the generic actions you may use, and nothing more. Each action describes wether and when it requires a test anyways.

Try to think outside the box. Right now, you are thinking "where am I and my target standing" as a requirement for RS or CC action. The rules do not ask you to stand in the same tile. Instead, think it this way: "Do I wanna burst my blasta" or "Do I wanna chop/club/bash 'em to death".

dougisitosan wrote:
Honestly, the rules seem like they were never handed to an outside party to be tested for logical errors. Rules like this should SPELL OUT what is allowed and what is not allowed by players.

One undeniable fact that I have discussed and verified with alot of people (I have played it with over 100 people ) is that this is not exactly a "standard board game", thus requiring a hightened player experience level. The mechanics remind us alot of a "Tabletop Wargame", and Prodos has verified that indeed they wanted to use the D20 Warzone system, or something like it, and make it easy for both Wargame and Boardgame AvP gamers to switch from one to the other.
However, this is not something that is of an issue after a few plays, and even the less experienced players grow to it.

When things are not easily understood by gamers and alot of them ask a specific question, it enters a FAQ document. So far, this question has never before been brought up so it seems it is clear to the majority of the players. However the v.2 has only just begun, so if the need arises we will see a FAQ being born

Cheers.

Edit: Prodos has started to spread rumors about an introductory game for the AvP, called something like "Last Stand".
 
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Shirley T
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GenChron wrote:
It will, once you change your point of view
To be clear: my “point of view” is in line with how these rules are defined using the language chosen by the author (not me). Words like “any” mean: every —used to indicate one selected without restriction. This word implies that there are no exceptions, and should only be used to indicate such.
GenChron wrote:
Yes. The weapons/actions that cannot be used on your own tile specificaly say so (for example, Burning Inferno).

FYI: the rules for Burning Inferno on pg 28 do not carry this restriction.wow
GenChron wrote:
This is a generic description to familiarize the players with the general concepts.

No it is not. This phrasing is used in the definition, ranged combat, and close combat sections (see pgs 7, 26, 27). It is clearly meant to define these actions, in three separate sections of the rules no less, and unlike Burning Inferno, it’s very consistent in its phrasing.whistle
GenChron wrote:
If you take it too literaly

By their very nature, rules are meant to be taken literally as they can be take no other way. Shall I interpret these rules figuratively, then?
GenChron wrote:
then one could argue you cannot shoot at a distance of 1 or 3 Tiles...

Yes, and I do not like the rules use of the phrasing, either. However, “a couple of tiles” can be accepted to mean “one or more” in the loosest sense of the phrase. “Any kind” has never be construed to mean “not necessarily everything”. Regardless, such imprecise phrasing should be replaced.
GenChron wrote:
Read the text as an introduction to the generic actions you may use

I did. The rules failed to adequately define the boundaries of each action, and instead remain vague where there is no excuse for a lack of clarity. If the text can be interpreted in multiple ways, then the author has failed to write a rules introduction.
GenChron wrote:
Try to think outside the box.

Are the rules not meant to be the box? Is it not the author’s responsibility to define the rules (or “box”) for the players to interact with each other in. Shouldn’t the author strive to do this with as little confusion, contradictions, or multiple interpretations of the rules as possible?
GenChron wrote:
this is not exactly a "standard board game", thus requiring a hightened player experience level.

I am a veteran wargamer. These rules are no more difficult to learn than any other game. In fact, they are relatively simple. Perhaps people have trouble playing the game because of poorly defined rules? It’s these inconstancies, incorrect diagrams, omissions, balance issues, and questionable mechanics that have plagued the gameplay of this game since its release. Worse, they are inherited by future revisions (or new errors added). Take an example on Ping! Token conversion:
Rules 1.2 wrote:
Mandatory—Both Players reveal their Ping! Tokens once both tokens gain LOS. If the Ping! Token has not yet been activated during that Phase, then all of the newly placed Models can be activated as normal. If the Ping! Token has already been activated, then the Model cannot be activated until the next Game Turn.

Makes sense.
Rules 2.0 wrote:
Mandatory—Both players reveal their Ping! Tokens once at least two enemy tokens gain LOS. Each newly placed model retains its activation status (Activated/Unactivated)

This new phrasing is awkward because it can be interpreted that a ping token is only revealed when at least two enemy tokens spot it.shake


Here’s the crux of my issue with allowing ranged attacks within the same tile (and getting back on topic):

Why would a marine player use a combat knife when he can shoot? If you crunch the numbers, his odds are equal (or better) provided he is able to aim before shooting (2 actions, vice 1 action). But what can you really do with that second action if you are engaged? This is especially true for the Smart gunner, who has 3 attacks and re-rolls (even without aiming, his odds are far better). I don’t get it. There seems to be no reason to do this unless you do something stupid like move onto a tile to engage and then attack.

This also points out a logical flaw of the rules (not that there aren’t plenty): A marine walks into proximity of an alien, and has BETTER odds of killing it if he drops his rifle and tries to stab it with a knife instead of shooting it a POINT BLANK RANGE?!!???!!! WHAAAAAAA?????

popsical wrote:
To be honest, if the marines can shoot at an enemy in the same tile they will never close combat. The rules on so many issues are so unclear its crazy. I can never get to grips with the flamer rules for shooting at mixed occupancy tiles either. Too much doesnt make clear sense. Basically we must all interpret stuff whilst playing. Cant ever see this game having organised comp play.
This guy gets it!
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Steven Noyes
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Looking at the ranged attack rules and CC rules in 2.0 id have to say you cant shoot at enemies in the same tile as the shooter.
1) ranged rule states "if a ranged attack is made from an engaged tile, it counts as shooting through an engaged tile". So one shoots "from" an engaged tile, which means "to" another tile.
2)CC rules state "Any kind of combat that allows Models to fight and
attack one another while being Engaged with one
another is called Close Combat and requires a successful
Close Combat Skill Test." So, any kind of combat doesnt include ranged combat? And ranged combat is also not an attack? And you can be in an engaged tile but not be engaged?
Id have to say going by these rules as written next to each other in the new book, you will be hard pressed to shoot at your own tile.
3) The shotgun is designed for the close range shot we are looking at and so it has rules for this occasion.
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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My reference to the point of view was not meant to be insulting. What I meant was, when we change what we expect and accept what is (as opposed to wanting what is to become what we expect), things become clearer and are resolved easier. If you take a step back and play it out layed back, you'll enjoy the experience alot more.

Like I said, some changes did not take effect during digitalization, and for this reason we will get 2.1. The flamer's wording should instead say "Pick a target one or two tiles away", thus negating distance zero. You could not possibly know that ofcourse, I am sorry allow me some margin of amnesia as to the list of errata
I will doublecheck with the team during the next week, maybe my memory failed me yet again and I gave you a wrong answer on the inferno
You know, I just like to answer to people asap because I get excited and want to help sorting things out, but that's a bad thing because I do it from memory

I promise you again, when many people bring forth a specific question, it will be included in a living FAQ to be updated monthly, but right now the second version is still young and I have not received many questions.

Use these answers to cover your shooting issues:
-Yes, you may shoot at your own tile if your weapon has no such limitation
-You shoot at a -10 penalty at your own tile.

I had fallen in love with this game since the early stages so I am a very biased judge, and I leave it to you to say if it's good or not. It had lots of "dark spots", but I believe that we (the fans involved in 2nd - 1 American, 1 Canadian, 1 German, 1 Czech and I) have improved it to a point where people can enjoy it with their friends, because that is what I do with mine. So far, all of us receive positive comments, perhaps overly positive

Criticism is a thing I greatly appreciate, because it is the means one can improve in his life. Certainly, no game (or anything in general) is ever "perfect", even if that's just a matter of opinion or taste. As a fan, a gamer and a person who put in alot of work in this 2nd version, I sincerely hope you can enjoy the game as much as I do.

edit:
Please direct any questions to the e-mail avprules@prodosgames.com
My work/marriage and other obligations don't allow me to be overly active and check all threads in groups/forums/EmperorKnowsWhere, so the best way to get a reply is when I check the e-mails on my free time (I am not a Prodos employee).
 
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Paco Pérez pozanco
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Have a question, marine flamethrower, use 1 action shot, the shot is automatic, no need to throw 1d20 right?
 
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Steven Noyes
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Can a flamer shoot at mixed occupancy tiles and pick who is hit?
 
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Jacob Carter
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For the 2 questions about a flamer. The flamethrower picks a single tile up to 2 spaces away from the shooter. No RS test is required to hit targets on the tile, and the attack hits EVERYTHING that is on the tile including Marines.
 
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Shirley T
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popsical wrote:
Looking at the ranged attack rules and CC rules in 2.0 id have to say you cant shoot at enemies in the same tile as the shooter.
1) ranged rule states "if a ranged attack is made from an engaged tile, it counts as shooting through an engaged tile". So one shoots "from" an engaged tile, which means "to" another tile.
2)CC rules state "Any kind of combat that allows Models to fight and
attack one another while being Engaged with one
another is called Close Combat and requires a successful
Close Combat Skill Test." So, any kind of combat doesnt include ranged combat? And ranged combat is also not an attack? And you can be in an engaged tile but not be engaged?
Id have to say going by these rules as written next to each other in the new book, you will be hard pressed to shoot at your own tile.
3) The shotgun is designed for the close range shot we are looking at and so it has rules for this occasion.
EXACTLY!
I think the problem we are seeing is that the authors are not native English speakers (save 1 or possible 2 on the new team) and the syntax and nuance of language is lost. My suggestion is to hire a professional writer of some kind to be FIRST taught the game, and THEN asked to proofread the rules for logic and syntax.

GenChron wrote:
My reference to the point of view was not meant to be insulting. What I meant was, when we change what we expect and accept what is (as opposed to wanting what is to become what we expect), things become clearer and are resolved easier. If you take a step back and play it out layed back, you'll enjoy the experience alot more.
I am not insulted by the comment, but you do come across as a little patronizing, and I'm sure I come across as a jerk. I don't care about the specifics of the mechanics you have chosen for this game (example: models can/can't shoot on same tile). What I care about is being able to UNDERSTAND the rules. Frankly, they are poorly edited and needlessly confusing. Since you don't live down the street from me, and Prodos hasn't release official "how to play" videos for the game, I only have the rulebook to learn the mechanics. It seems you are telling me that the rulebook contradicts the game mechanics of the game. This is bad.


GenChron wrote:

Use these answers to cover your shooting issues:
-Yes, you may shoot at your own tile if your weapon has no such limitation
-You shoot at a -10 penalty at your own tile.
Fantastic, the English rules should be re-worded to not directly contradict this!


GenChron wrote:
I had fallen in love with this game since the early stages so I am a very biased judge, and I leave it to you to say if it's good or not. It had lots of "dark spots"
I now believe that the problem isn't in the mechanics of the game, it's in the writing of the mechanics into rules. The rules read as a rushed, poorly organized mess, that has plenty of pretty pictures. shake Unfortunately, your bias does not expose you to the product that is presented to the customer, as an expert in the game system, it may be difficult for you to see how your game is interpreted by the sub-par rules.

GenChron wrote:
So far, all of us receive positive comments, perhaps overly positive ... Criticism is a thing I greatly appreciate, because it is the means one can improve in his life. Certainly, no game (or anything in general) is ever "perfect", even if that's just a matter of opinion or taste. As a fan, a gamer and a person who put in alot of work in this 2nd version, I sincerely hope you can enjoy the game as much as I do.
The original rules were "incomplete", to put it mildly. You had a low hurdle to jump soblue. With that said, I am a fan of the changes to the game (and even started a thread here about it)... 2.0 address most of the shortcomings of previous versions. The game now needs consistent language, rules appropriate syntax, and better organization to make it easier to learn and less of a nightmare to reference during games. It's got a lot of potential (the mechanics of the game are probably solid???), but they're lost in a disorganized sea of poor syntax and gibberish.

I've heard rumors of a "simplified" version to be released. This is wholly unnecessary as the current rules have the right balance of depth /simplicity. The game is "too complicated", because of the rulebook's shortcomings and not the mechanics underneath the game.
 
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