Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

CO₂» Forums » General

Subject: CEP Groupthink? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I just got home from a game night where we played CO2 and decided to revisit the forums here. I've played the game about a dozen times with a few different groups, mostly 3 player, a couple times with 4.

I enjoy the game, but the CEP market always irks me a little bit. For the first 2 or 3 decades the market will hover around $2 or $3, which is fine. But somewhere around the midpoint of the game the market always crashes to $1 and remains there for the rest of the game. I have never played a game where the market ever reached $5 and every game the market has ended on $1 or occasionally $2 (which happens when somebody has the CEP bonus card and is working really hard to get it there).

So I read through some of the forums here and I see that some groups are ending the game with the market on $7, which amazed me. If the market ever reaches $4, there is almost a 100% chance of me (and everyone in my group) selling for that kind of value. In the mid and late game, CEPs always feel abundant and throughout the game cash feels much more scarce and valuable.

Does the market play out differently for anyone else?
Is this a symptom of the 3 player game instead of other player counts?
Is this groupthink on the value of CEPs?
The game plays fine despite this, so this isn't a huge complaint, just a curiosity.

(Before you ask, we are playing the rules correctly)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristo Vaher
Estonia
Tallinn
Harjumaa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's really easy to play CEP's wrong, are you sure you are playing all the rules correctly?

Controlling CEP's is a huge part of the game, thus value of CEP's is important. What you may be forgetting (as a strategic mistake) is that it is more valuable for you for CEP value not to be $1, if you have more CEP's than every other player. Player that controls more regions that have CEP's, controls the market.

If you control CEP's, you WANT them to be rare, thus you don't want the market price to go down.

Also don't forget that you can only buy or sell 1 CEP at a time.

And ALL CEP's come from market. ALL of them. If you remove one and it is empty, market price goes up. The only way for CEP to go to market is from bank, if market is empty or when player sells CEP.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I am fairly certain we are following the rules correctly.
When I sell a CEP to the market the price lowers by $1.
When I buy a CEP from the market the price only goes up when the market is empty.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ariel
Chile
Vina del Mar
V. Region
flag msg tools
If a game needs it, I feel forced to create and implement some variants.
mbmbmbmbmb
Temelin wrote:
I am fairly certain we are following the rules correctly.
When I sell a CEP to the market the price lowers by $1.
When I buy a CEP from the market the price only goes up when the market is empty.

We also have this problem, because it's bad stated in the rules. When you buy a CEP, the price also rises. When you take CEPs for other reason, the price remains unless you take the last CEP.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chango wrote:
Temelin wrote:
I am fairly certain we are following the rules correctly.
When I sell a CEP to the market the price lowers by $1.
When I buy a CEP from the market the price only goes up when the market is empty.

We also have this problem, because it's bad stated in the rules. When you buy a CEP, the price also rises. When you take CEPs for other reason, the price remains unless you take the last CEP.

Regarding the purchase of CEPs, the rulebook says:
"You can buy 1 CEP, taking it from the market pile to your hand, by paying the bank the price indicated. If the market pile runs out, you will see the word "STOP" to remind you that you can no longer sell during your turn, because the market price is changing. Refill the market with 2 CEPs from the bank, and increase the CEP price by 1 (maximum price: 8); otherwise the price does not increase."

To me "otherwise" means: "if the market isn't empty."
So that paragraph reads: "You can buy 1 CEP, if that empties the market, refill it and increase the price, otherwise the price does not increase."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristo Vaher
Estonia
Tallinn
Harjumaa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, just buying CEP does not increase market price, I remembered that wrong. Market price ONLY increases when CEP runs out from the market. But there's plenty of times when this can happen.

This can happen when:

- Player buys the last CEP on market (remember, you can buy just 1 CEP on your turn from Market)
- Expertise (tech track) gives region CEP bonus, so you place CEP on one of the regions and it's the last CEP on market
- Install project with CEP as benefit (Forestation, Biomass, Recycling) and it's the last CEP on market
- Minor lobby card bonus for CEP and it's the last CEP on the market
- Fossil fuel plant is replaced by green power plant (it happens when all powerplant slots are taken and you replace one of the old plants) and you get 1 CEP from market to that region as a bonus and it's the last CEP on the market.

Each of those situations can increase the price of CEP, if it's the last on the market.

Only way to decrease the price of CEP is to sell a CEP to market, which you can do once per turn.

And in fact, there is really no reason to sell CEP's unless you need a quick cache. At almost any time it is more valuable to hold on to CEP's (and thus make buying them expensive to those who have fewer).

As such I am really interested why does your group keep selling CEP's and keep the price low?

Remember that there is NO REASON to sell a CEP just for the price, unless you need money to pay for something else. So just selling it for the sake of selling it is a BAD STRATEGIC MOVE You cannot really damage a player who has more CEP than you do either, because selling 1 per turn is a waste.

Your CEP's get automatically sold anyway in the end of the game for the market price and the higher it is, the more you'll get out of it.

Only sell CEP if you think that it crashes for whatever reason. And even then you cannot win much because you can only sell 1 CEP on your turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Olsen
United States
South Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I played for the first time on Saturday and the market stayed in the $7-8 area for the last quarter of the game or so. As Kristo outlined, it seems you may have misplayed something, or your group is really into selling for some reason.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristo Vaher
Estonia
Tallinn
Harjumaa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jabooty3 wrote:
I played for the first time on Saturday and the market stayed in the $7-8 area for the last quarter of the game or so. As Kristo outlined, it seems you may have misplayed something, or your group is really into selling for some reason.


The only rule I guess many get wrong is that differently from most board games, CEP resource always comes from central market. It never comes from bank unless it replenishes market.

It can be a symptom of taking CEP from bank instead of market why CEP price crashes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
You may call me
Canada
Burlington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't have any clear examples, but in most of my 2 player games the CEP market value is mid to high. I don't recall a game where the market was on the $1 or $2 value at mid or end game. So to answer your question directly, I think it may be group think.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ariel
Chile
Vina del Mar
V. Region
flag msg tools
If a game needs it, I feel forced to create and implement some variants.
mbmbmbmbmb
Temelin wrote:
Chango wrote:
Temelin wrote:
I am fairly certain we are following the rules correctly.
When I sell a CEP to the market the price lowers by $1.
When I buy a CEP from the market the price only goes up when the market is empty.

We also have this problem, because it's bad stated in the rules. When you buy a CEP, the price also rises. When you take CEPs for other reason, the price remains unless you take the last CEP.

Regarding the purchase of CEPs, the rulebook says:
"You can buy 1 CEP, taking it from the market pile to your hand, by paying the bank the price indicated. If the market pile runs out, you will see the word "STOP" to remind you that you can no longer sell during your turn, because the market price is changing. Refill the market with 2 CEPs from the bank, and increase the CEP price by 1 (maximum price: 8); otherwise the price does not increase."

To me "otherwise" means: "if the market isn't empty."
So that paragraph reads: "You can buy 1 CEP, if that empties the market, refill it and increase the price, otherwise the price does not increase."

Well, I also understand that and in fact play it that way many many times, the problem is that it's very hard to the CEPs to increase its market value. I played with some people who notice and bored that and ask me for a rule mising, they say that the buying action implies more demand, so we play it adding the buying increase and the game flow very well too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gordon Watson
United Kingdom
Banstead
Surrey - United Kingdom
flag msg tools
ASL - other tactical wargames call it Sir.
badge
Beneath this mask there is an idea.....and ideas are bulletproof.
mbmbmbmbmb
Remember CEP's are effectively worth points at the end of the game and the higher the value the more points they are worth. It is therefore worthwhile for players to acquire CEP's and not just to allow the payment for projects to be installed - therefore it's worth the player leading on CEP's to manipulate the CEP price upward.

In early games we played CEP's tended to only be picked up when essential to cover installing, or to raise a quick dollar or two and therefore the CEP price stayed low.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brett McLay
United States
South Burlington
Vermont
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Most games the CEP price inherently goes up as the market empties from forestry installations (2 CEPs rewarded). As play progresses, market volume pushes lower via the expertise tracks when they give a CEP. Add biomass or recycling installations and the accumulation of demands combine to regularly zero out the market.

A variety of actions sustain price increases unless many players sell to the market. And they are limited in doing so because they may not sell (1) CEP if any other action has changed the market price during their turn (Rule 2.2.2). This is where the sequencing of installations/constructions/expertise-gains become important.


Finally, this assumes following normal rules. There has been some talk from the designer about variant rules for installation. These would make it easier while transferring some costs to construction phase. Check out the forums within the last year. ~ Glad this game gets the attention it deserves.

Associated links:
Designer's variant to stop players to stall in last decades
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Slashdoctor wrote:
Remember that there is NO REASON to sell a CEP just for the price, unless you need money to pay for something else. So just selling it for the sake of selling it is a BAD STRATEGIC MOVE You cannot really damage a player who has more CEP than you do either, because selling 1 per turn is a waste.

domus_ludorum wrote:
Remember CEP's are effectively worth points at the end of the game and the higher the value the more points they are worth. It is therefore worthwhile for players to acquire CEP's and not just to allow the payment for projects to be installed - therefore it's worth the player leading on CEP's to manipulate the CEP price upward.

So lets go through a clean example that illustrates why I think it is the only correct strategic move to sell in mid to late game.
It is a 3 player game, let's say there are 10 turns left to play, everybody has a few plants and controls a region or two, everyone has 5 CEPs, and there are 2 CEPs in the market and it is at $5. Everyone is going to pay installation costs from their controlled regions most of the time. And for simplicity, let's say everybody is going to gain 5 more CEPs by the end of the game.

So everyone theoretically has 10 CEPs in hand (5 current and 5 they will gain through the rest of the game).
example #1) 2 CEPs will be used from the market every round (by installing projects, expertise bonus, etc.).

My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (1 in market at $4)
My turn 2: I sell for $4. (2 in market at $3) I have $9.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $4)
My turn 3: I sell for $4. (3 in market at $3) I have $13.
End of round: (1 in market at $3)
My turn 4: I sell for $3. (2 in market at $2) I have $16.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $3)
My turn 5: I sell for $3. (3 in market at $2) I have $19.
End of round: (1 in market at $2)
My turn 6: I sell for $2. (2 in market at $1) I have $21.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)
My turn 7: I sell for $2. (3 in market at $1) I have $23.
End of round: (1 in market at $1)
My turn 8: I sell for $1. (2 in market at $1) I have $24.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)
My turn 9: I sell for $2. (3 in market at $1) I have $26.
End of round: (1 in market at $1)
My turn 10: I sell for $1. (2 in market at $1) I have $27.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)

I have made $27 of usable cash on my CEPs and my opponents have $20 in value at the end of the game. If the market doesn't bump to $2 on the last turn I have $27 and they each have $10.
I also think this is a conservative example because in my games more people are selling and I don't think 2 are being used every round. There are rounds where someone proposes a plant, someone installs a solar plant, and someone builds something.
But even if it were 3 CEPs leaving the market every turn on average, take a look at this example:

example #2) 3 CEPs will be used from the market every round (by installing projects, expertise bonus, etc.).

My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 2: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $10.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 3: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $15.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 4: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $20.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 5: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $25.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 6: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $30.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 7: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $35.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 8: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $40.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 9: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $45.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 10: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $50.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)

I end up with $50 cash and my opponents have $50 valued CEPs at game end.
Both of these examples are simplified, but not far from reality.

Here is what happens if 4 CEPs leave the market every turn:
My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (1 in market at $5)
My turn 2: I sell for $5. (2 in market at $4) I have $10.
End of round: (2 in market at $6)
My turn 3: I sell for $6. (3 in market at $5) I have $16.
End of round: (1 in market at $6)
My turn 4: I sell for $6. (2 in market at $5) I have $22.
End of round: (2 in market at $7)
My turn 5: I sell for $7. (3 in market at $6) I have $29.
End of round: (1 in market at $7)
My turn 6: I sell for $7. (2 in market at $6) I have $36.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)
My turn 7: I sell for $8. (3 in market at $7) I have $44.
End of round: (1 in market at $8)
My turn 8: I sell for $8. (2 in market at $7) I have $52.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)
My turn 9: I sell for $8. (3 in market at $7) I have $60.
End of round: (1 in market at $8)
My turn 10: I sell for $8. (2 in market at $7) I have $68.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)

So in this case I end with $68 in usable cash, my opponents have $80 in CEP value. If the market doesn't bump on that last turn I have $68 and they have $70. I don't think this situation could even happen in a game, but even if it did, you can see that worst case you are $12 behind, but you have had a huge stockpile of cash with which to build plants.

If you think these examples are flawed somehow, please show me how.
I would put the true economic value of a CEP somewhere around $2. Anything above that I'm selling unless an odd situation comes up.

Brett, I hadn't seen that variant, but I really like it. The game does tend to stagnate towards the last few turns. Nobody wants to let anybody else build a plant so there is a lot of proposing and hardly any installing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rahn
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Temelin wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
Remember that there is NO REASON to sell a CEP just for the price, unless you need money to pay for something else. So just selling it for the sake of selling it is a BAD STRATEGIC MOVE You cannot really damage a player who has more CEP than you do either, because selling 1 per turn is a waste.

domus_ludorum wrote:
Remember CEP's are effectively worth points at the end of the game and the higher the value the more points they are worth. It is therefore worthwhile for players to acquire CEP's and not just to allow the payment for projects to be installed - therefore it's worth the player leading on CEP's to manipulate the CEP price upward.

So lets go through a clean example that illustrates why I think it is the only correct strategic move to sell in mid to late game.
It is a 3 player game, let's say there are 10 turns left to play, everybody has a few plants and controls a region or two, everyone has 5 CEPs, and there are 2 CEPs in the market and it is at $5. Everyone is going to pay installation costs from their controlled regions most of the time. And for simplicity, let's say everybody is going to gain 5 more CEPs by the end of the game.

So everyone theoretically has 10 CEPs in hand (5 current and 5 they will gain through the rest of the game).
example #1) 2 CEPs will be used from the market every round (by installing projects, expertise bonus, etc.).

My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (1 in market at $4)
My turn 2: I sell for $4. (2 in market at $3) I have $9.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $4)
My turn 3: I sell for $4. (3 in market at $3) I have $13.
End of round: (1 in market at $3)
My turn 4: I sell for $3. (2 in market at $2) I have $16.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $3)
My turn 5: I sell for $3. (3 in market at $2) I have $19.
End of round: (1 in market at $2)
My turn 6: I sell for $2. (2 in market at $1) I have $21.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)
My turn 7: I sell for $2. (3 in market at $1) I have $23.
End of round: (1 in market at $1)
My turn 8: I sell for $1. (2 in market at $1) I have $24.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)
My turn 9: I sell for $2. (3 in market at $1) I have $26.
End of round: (1 in market at $1)
My turn 10: I sell for $1. (2 in market at $1) I have $27.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $2)

I have made $27 of usable cash on my CEPs and my opponents have $20 in value at the end of the game. If the market doesn't bump to $2 on the last turn I have $27 and they each have $10.
I also think this is a conservative example because in my games more people are selling and I don't think 2 are being used every round. There are rounds where someone proposes a plant, someone installs a solar plant, and someone builds something.
But even if it were 3 CEPs leaving the market every turn on average, take a look at this example:

example #2) 3 CEPs will be used from the market every round (by installing projects, expertise bonus, etc.).

My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 2: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $10.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 3: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $15.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 4: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $20.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 5: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $25.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 6: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $30.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 7: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $35.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 8: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $40.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 9: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $45.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)
My turn 10: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $50.
End of round: (0 in market, refill to 2 at $5)

I end up with $50 cash and my opponents have $50 valued CEPs at game end.
Both of these examples are simplified, but not far from reality.

Here is what happens if 4 CEPs leave the market every turn:
My turn 1: I sell for $5. (3 in market at $4) I have $5.
End of round: (1 in market at $5)
My turn 2: I sell for $5. (2 in market at $4) I have $10.
End of round: (2 in market at $6)
My turn 3: I sell for $6. (3 in market at $5) I have $16.
End of round: (1 in market at $6)
My turn 4: I sell for $6. (2 in market at $5) I have $22.
End of round: (2 in market at $7)
My turn 5: I sell for $7. (3 in market at $6) I have $29.
End of round: (1 in market at $7)
My turn 6: I sell for $7. (2 in market at $6) I have $36.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)
My turn 7: I sell for $8. (3 in market at $7) I have $44.
End of round: (1 in market at $8)
My turn 8: I sell for $8. (2 in market at $7) I have $52.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)
My turn 9: I sell for $8. (3 in market at $7) I have $60.
End of round: (1 in market at $8)
My turn 10: I sell for $8. (2 in market at $7) I have $68.
End of round: (2 in market at $8)

So in this case I end with $68 in usable cash, my opponents have $80 in CEP value. If the market doesn't bump on that last turn I have $68 and they have $70. I don't think this situation could even happen in a game, but even if it did, you can see that worst case you are $12 behind, but you have had a huge stockpile of cash with which to build plants.

If you think these examples are flawed somehow, please show me how.
I would put the true economic value of a CEP somewhere around $2. Anything above that I'm selling unless an odd situation comes up.

Brett, I hadn't seen that variant, but I really like it. The game does tend to stagnate towards the last few turns. Nobody wants to let anybody else build a plant so there is a lot of proposing and hardly any installing.


The accounting you've missed is your opponents' buying CEPs to keep the price up despite your sabotage. By selling CEPs you are also allowing the next person in turn order to snap up a CEP for cheaper than it will be worth at the end game if multiple players collude to inflate CEP value. If the number of people buying CEPs is equal to the number selling CEPs than the market will at least remain flat. The players buying the CEPs will make up for the extra supply in the middle from the selling players as well as make up half of the price losses by working to empty the market. The game driven CEPs will then make up the other half of the market losses. If the number of players buying CEPs is greater than those selling then the price will increase.

The thing I haven't figured out yet and that I don't have enough games under my belt to yet determine is when it makes sense to collude with other players to sell CEPs in order to damage a competitor's point position. You can only make financial gains (relative to a few opponents) by tanking the market in collusion with other player(s) for reasons outlined above. It's always going to be in the best interests of the player with the worst CEP portfolio to tank the market. But that player will need to recruit 1 or 2 more players to their side depending on player count. If you are in the middle of the pack does it make sense for you to also tank the market? It depends on who you think you are competing with for the best relative position you can place in this game. If you are competing against someone who has a worse CEP portfolio than you, you should stay in the CEP market. If you think you are in direct competition with a player that has a better portfolio then you should also tank the market. However you also have to weight this up with any advantage you might have of being after a seller in turn order as this allows you to buy CEPs at their cheapest if you work to inflate their values. As the person with the worst CEP portfolio it becomes your job to find 1 or 2 players to collude with by pointing out their incentives to do so.

Next time you play have the players with strong CEP portfolios start buying more CEPs and watch how quickly they disappear and watch the market price inflate. I've seen games where there were no more CEP tokens left. The selling player emptied all of their tokens out and the other two players bought out the market and the price shot up to 8 after dropping down to $3.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
TumbleSteak wrote:

The accounting you've missed is your opponents' buying CEPs to keep the price up despite your sabotage. By selling CEPs you are also allowing the next person in turn order to snap up a CEP for cheaper than it will be worth at the end game if multiple players collude to inflate CEP value. If the number of people buying CEPs is equal to the number selling CEPs than the market will at least remain flat. The players buying the CEPs will make up for the extra supply in the middle from the selling players as well as make up half of the price losses by working to empty the market. The game driven CEPs will then make up the other half of the market losses. If the number of players buying CEPs is greater than those selling then the price will increase.

(I accounted for other people buying in the "number of CEPs leaving the market" in my examples.)

I have to disagree with your statement though, specifically the portion I highlighted. It would be pretty difficult to make that many CEPs leave the market stack every round in a 3 or 4 player game. And is cash so abundant in your games that you can afford to buy CEPs for $4+? I don't see how you could have any cash left to build plants with.

Even if you could manage to keep the market that high, I would gladly still sell my CEPs to gain lots of cash to spend on plants while people are saving their CEPs for 4 points each best case scenario at the end of the game.

I think my 3rd example illustrates this well. You could argue that my opponents maybe have 15 CEPs rather than 10 at the end of the game. But I would say that the points I've gained from buying plants with my cash outweighs this difference. Your CEP end game cash will be worth 0.5 points per $1. My cash will be worth ~0.9 points per $1 building plants. (This doesn't even account for the value of controlling regions and achieving UN goal cards with those plants.) Also keep in mind that this isn't "sabotaging" the market, rather it is gaining valuable cash to turn into points. The side effect of everybody wanting cash is that the market quickly tanks. Cash is fairly tight in every game I have played.

Furthermore, why would someone ever waste $5 or $6 buying a CEP? There is so much more value in buying a plant, gaining the VPs, and gaining expertise from it. Even if buying it increases the value of your other CEPs, the market is so volatile that it could drop $2 or $3 before it's even your turn again.

I'm amazed you ran out of CEP tokens in your game. The last game we played there was a stack of 8 CEPs sitting in the market at the end of the game with the market on $1.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brett McLay
United States
South Burlington
Vermont
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not too hard to simulate a 3-player game. One might try this: sell CEPs and emphasize nuclear and solar (installs that do not reward CEP). This would take some pressure off the market to see if it stays down. But selecting such actions will depend on which continents need attention, to avoid going over 500 ppm by the fourth decade.

Another underlying problem is, what if Recycling/Biomass/*Forestry* exceed nuke-solar in order for control and eventual scoring? It is hard to avoid the intensive CEP-installs that take from the market.

So, on second thought, this experiment would be too artificial. It wouldn't mimic true gameplay.

I think an earlier point has merit: astute players can counter a few CEP hoarders or shirkers, and leave them hanging dry for cash or CEPs late in the game. This depends on what the board allows.

This game is rated 3.88 for a reason.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maciej w
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Will wrote:

Even if you could manage to keep the market that high, I would gladly still sell my CEPs to gain lots of cash to spend on plants while people are saving their CEPs for 4 points each best case scenario at the end of the game.

I'm amazed you ran out of CEP tokens in your game. The last game we played there was a stack of 8 CEPs sitting in the market at the end of the game with the market on $1.


Remember that you may not be allowed to sell in your turn which may happen quite often in the late game. At least, this was the case in my last game. A friend of mine controlled more regions than me, therefore I wanted to decrease the CEP price. However, you are not allowed to sell if the price increased during your turn. This may happen as a result of replacing a fossil power plant (CEP comes from the market) or as a result of moving on the expertise track on the CEP icon. We finished the game with the price of CEP at 7.
There are lot of different ways to get money instead of selling CEP... and by the end of the game it may not be that easy to decrease the price since there is always somebody (or two) who want the price to go up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
elayeth wrote:

Remember that you may not be allowed to sell in your turn which may happen quite often in the late game. At least,

You can do free actions before your main action. I can't think of a situation where someone would be prevented from selling on their turn, other than misplaying the order of their turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan M
Canada
Regina
Saskatchewan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've only played this game a couple times, but recently found a copy to purchase and have read the rules. I feel like the game is designed to ensure the market is always emptying out, and the price slowly increasing as the game goes on. This also fits with Lacerda's eye for detail in his games and how they attempt to simulate the theme as much as possible...and a cap and trade type system is designed to keep carbon prices increase to encourage less emissions over time.

The only reason the price can bottom out in a game is if people are constantly selling everything they have, which seems like a mistake or poor strategy (due to the need for CEPs throughout the game as well as their value at end game). It doesn't really make sense for players to be selling a CEP for $2 on their turn unless they are extremely desperate for that money.

Or, there is some rule error occurring. For example, in one post it was mentioned if the price was at $4, everyone would just sell their CEPs. Except each player can only sell 1 CEP per turn and every single sale drops the price by $1. So everyone COULDN'T sell for $4. Only one player would be able to take advantage of that price, get their $4, which would cause the price to drop to $3. If the next player also sells for $3, they can only sell a single CEP and it drops the price to $2 for the next player...which leads me to the previous point about why anyone would sell for $2 (or $3 even tbh).

And if the price is so low, people should be buying way more at such a low price, rather than selling everything anyway. Because CEPs not only have value in helping you install, but at end of game as well. So holding them as long as possible is in your best interest. It also means more empty markets and price increases.

I'm also trying to think about the game state during this hypothetical example. If people keep selling CEPs, how are they getting more to use for installations? How are they paying for the regions who need to build dirty energy? There are ways to get CEPs but because those come from the market and, in some cases go regions and not players...that means more market demand and the price should go up. And you can only sell CEPs in hand.

Perhaps people could be producing tons of the energy that gives out CEPs...but then that means prices should be going up or at least staying stagnant because the market should quickly clear out which raises prices.

So I don't know. I hate to say it can't ever happen, because I'm sure it can. But I think if it is happening regularly, it probably IS due to groupthink leading to poor play and decisions. The CEP market isn't there just to be an "easy" way to get $2 or $3. It is its own game mechanism which can be used and played with and manipulated for your own benefit. It is also in your best interest to try and get/hold as many CEPs as you can and control regions with lots of CEPs for end game scoring.

*EDIT* Not sure if the OP is still checking this thread, but after buying the game and playing a couple times 2p, I'm convinced some rules error was made. In each of our games the CEP Market stayed at 7 or 8 for the last half of the game. There was the occasional sale, but for the most part CEPs were plentiful in regions (less so in hand) and the market empties out so quickly that it is hard to see a bunchy of sales to drive the price down the way the OP claims happens every game.

So to clarify: A player can only buy or sell one, single CEP on their turn. Any time a CEP is used (other than selling to the market), it gets discarded (to the bank). Spend CEPs, for ANY reason do NOT go back into the market. Anytime a CEP is given out, it comes from the market...NOT the bank. Regions can never have more CEPs than spaces in their region for power plants. And finally, whenever the CEP market is empty, you add two more from the bank and increase the price.

Honestly, there are so many ways for CEPs to come out of the market (installs can quickly drain the markets, replacing dirty power with clean, experience track awarding CEPs) and so much value in keep CEP levels in the game high (for income, to avoid penalties if a region runs out, and end game scoring). Compare that to the fact only 1 CEP can be sold per turn and I simply don't see how players could be keeping the market rock bottom for a whole game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Holroyd
England
Morecambe
Lancashire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I played a 5 player game and the exact same thing happened to us where the cost of CEP's just would not rise.

Came on to BGG to see if the cost should have been rising when one was bought, but low and behold we played it right!

Scores were very tight at the end, with 4 of us being within 5 points of one another with one player being about 10 ahead.

To me and my group it didn't feel like a market at all, because it just stayed at 1 or 2 throughout the game. Players were even selling them for £1. That £1 was best used to put power plants into play to gain more points.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cabral
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow! I have never played a game with the CEP market so low. How many CEPs were in the market at a time?

In the games that I have played the CEPs are within 5 to 8. Most of the time it isn't worth selling for under 2 or 3. With exception to when you said that 1 money was used to gain VP by constructing power plants.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cabral
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

You may have played the CEP market incorrectly.



There are only 2 scenarios where CEPs go into the Market:
- Players sell one CEP to the market using a free action which makes the market price go down by 1
- When the market is empty it is refilled from the Bank with 2 CEPs and the price goes up

Bank scenarios:
- When a player pays a CEP to Install it goes to the Bank
- When a region builds a dirty power plant at the beginning of a decade it goes to the Bank

Region scenarios:
- When you receive an Expertise bonus it goes to a region of your choice NOT your hand! (Regional CEP limit check!)
- When replacing a dirty power plant with a clean one when all slots in that continent is already full you can it goes to that region, NOT your hand! (Regional CEP limit check!)

Other tips for CEPs:
- Regional CEP Limit: Regions cannot support more CEPs than the number of their Energy Demand Spaces. (Africa can have a maximum of 3 CEPs; Asia, 6; Europe and North America, 5; Oceania and South America are limited to 4).
- You can create combos with CEPs. If there is one or two CEPs in the market: Buy a CEP. Install Forestation, Biomass or a Recycling project and spend that CEP to the bank. Forestation rewards you 2 CEPs from the Market, Biomass rewards $3, 1 tech cube and 1 CEP from the Market and Recycling rewards $5 and 1 CEP from the Market. This will deplete the CEPs in the Market and cause the price to rise.
- Make sure you control as many regions as possible because the end of the game those CEPs are yours!

Vital provided me with an updated Player Aid guide that corrected errata/spelling errors and a nicer CEP flow diagram.

You can download it here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/130840/co2-player-aid-eng...

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Will
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Cabralicus wrote:

You may have played the CEP market incorrectly.

Try selling a CEP every turn and then come back and tell us how badly you crush your opponents. Unless they catch on and start doing it too .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Holroyd
England
Morecambe
Lancashire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Played it totally correct.

Looks like my group tanked the market accidentally, at least 2 people would sell per decade. That pulls it down quite considerably.

In addition no one other than me was interested in ever purchasing them, I had the goal card that rewarded having them. With the market so low no one could see the market increasing and it been worthwhile at the end.

The market being so low enabled me to stay in contention after some bad power plant choices. 3 solar... Pushed me out of ever being able to get any UN goals.

We all learnt a lot and I think the market would stabilise if a few of us were holding onto CEP's.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cabral
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Temelin wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:

You may have played the CEP market incorrectly.

Try selling a CEP every turn and then come back and tell us how badly you crush your opponents. Unless they catch on and start doing it too .


I have but it needs at least 2 players selling every turn. Other wise I am just giving a CEP at a bargain price.

At that point I would sell only if I needed the cash to construct power plants. In most of my games we wanted to keep CEPs and I made a concerted effort to gain control of regions by constructing Forestation or solar power plants earlier in the game to maintain control during the game and choosing a variety at the mid-game to steal control from other players.

I'm interested in reading about your playthrough using your strategy! How did it pan out? I might try it out next game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.