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Subject: A selection of Rule Questions (2nd Edition) rss

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Lipa LeChuck
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I've played my first few patrols (2nd Edition Rules) and a number of questions came up. I searched the forums for the answers, but I couldn't seem to find what I needed. So here goes:

1) In one situation I started from Port in Germany and moved to the English Channel. I drew the "Stormy Weather" Event card, which stopped my movement. But what next? Where should I move the U-boat (since it cannot stay in the English Channel)? The rules only mention the situation if a U-boat becomes unfit in the English Channel, in which case you should move it in the Searched box of the "Area from which it just moved". But if I moved from the Port in Germany, does this mean that I basically moved from the North Sea, in which case I simply move it to the Searched box of the North Sea Area? I played it this way, but please correct me if I missed something... EDIT: Hmmm, I guess I should have first moved from Port to North Sea in any case, right? It's in the example in the rules... So the U-boat should go indeed into the Searched box of the North Sea.

2) When exactly do counters on the Campaign card, such as "Intel", "Warning", "Air Search" etc., get removed from the card? In the rules, for example for "Intel", it says that the counter "remains in this area for this Strategic Segment". But again in rules, at the end of the Refit Segment, it says that you should remove all "Intel" and "Warning" counters. But is this already the end of the Strategic Segment?

3) When you draw the Convoy card in order to set up the Tactical map, do you at this time read and apply the optional rules/effects written on the bottom of the card? I can't see any mention of this in the rules, except in the description of the components where it says that "the card shows ... any special conditions in effect during the encounter". So this initially led me to believe that the effects of the card DO come into account (although, under "Draw Convoy Card", there is no mention of this). But further on, there is another rule under the "Form Wolfpacks" section. There, it says that after drawing and setting up the Tactical situation, you "draw another Convoy card and refer special conditions on the card". So I figured this is only meant for Wolfpacks... but, in the final section of the rules, where there is the example turn, the play actually proceedes as follows: the player first draws the Convoy card and IGNORES any text below, then sets up the Tactical situation. The Wolfpack is NOT formed. Then, he draws ANOTHER Convoy card "to determine any special conditions"... So what is the correct way to do this? Do you always draw the second Convoy card only for the special conditions? Or do you apply the special conditions on the first card?

4) To make sure: when you fire a number of torpedoes at a target, you can only obtain a SINGLE hit, right? The number of torpedoes only improves your chances and, to some extent, your damage. But you DO NOT score multiple hits (and multiple damage counters), right? The only exception to this is if you roll the highest number two (or more) times, in which case you DO score multiple hits. Correct? (Thematically, this last bit doesn't make too much sense to me.)

5) The rules say that Flooding counts as a temporary Hull hit. So does this mean that if the existing Hull damage is one less than the total Hull rating of the U-boat and I get Flooding, then the U-boat is destroyed? Also, multiple Flooding counters add up, right? So if I have no previous Hull damage, but get 3 Flooding counters during combat, and my Hull rating is also 3 - the U-boat goes down. Correct?

6) You draw Event cards for Patrolling only if you START your Movement phase in an Area and DO NOT move your U-boat, right? In some other threads, there seem to be some other strange variations of this rule, e.g. you draw the Event cards for Patrolling after you COMPLETE your movement in an Area, in addition to drawing the Event cards for moving INTO this area... but this is wrong, right?

Many thanks! If anything else comes up, I'll post it here. Otherwise, I really enjoy the game, quite addictive!
 
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fix benoit
France
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Hello !

I'll try to answer my best.

LipaB wrote:

1) ..... EDIT: Hmmm, I guess I should have first moved from Port to North Sea in any case, right? I'm having problems understanding how Ports are connected to the Areas - are Ports a part of an area, or are they "standalone" areas?



Yes, you should have moved to North Sea, then pick up any event card from this Area before going to the Channel. So with Stormy Weather, you will have to go to the searched box of North Sea Area.

Quote:

2) When exactly do counters on the Campaign card, such as "Intel", "Warning", "Air Search" etc., get removed from the card? In the rules, for example for "Intel", it says that the counter "remains in this area for this Strategic Segment". But again in rules, at the end of the Refit Segment, it says that you should remove all "Intel" and "Warning" counters. But is this already the end of the Strategic Segment?


Yes, the "Refit" Segment is the end of the Strategic round.

Quote:

3) ..... the play actually proceedes as follows: the player first draws the Convoy card and IGNORES any text below, then sets up the Tactical situation. The Wolfpack is NOT formed. Then, he draws ANOTHER Convoy card "to determine any special conditions"...


That's the way you have to do it. Draw the first card to set the contacts on the tactical map & ignore the text below, then draw another convoy card and apply the text.

Quote:


4) To make sure: when you fire a number of torpedoes at a target, you can only obtain a SINGLE hit, right? The number of torpedoes only improves your chances and, to some extent, your damage. But you DO NOT score multiple hits (and multiple damage counters), right? The only exception to this is if you roll the highest number two (or more) times, in which case you DO score multiple hits. Correct? (Thematically, this last bit doesn't make too much sense to me.)


You're right. I guess that you simulate some torpedoes that will missed and other that will hit. If you roll the same result multiple times, it mean multiple hits.

Quote:

5) The rules say that Flooding counts as a temporary Hull hit. So does this mean that if the existing Hull damage is one less than the total Hull rating of the U-boat and I get Flooding, then the U-boat is destroyed? Also, multiple Flooding counters add up, right? So if I have no previous Hull damage, but get 3 Flooding counters during combat, and my Hull rating is also 3 - the U-boat goes down. Correct?


You're right. The only difference between Hull & Flooding damages is that Hull is a lasting damage & Flood is a temporary damage.

So the flooding damage will be removed during the Stress Recovery step, but Hull can only be repaired at Ports. Check "Stress Recovery at Sea" & "Stress Recovery in Port" in the rules.

Quote:

6) You draw Event cards for Patrolling only if you START your Movement phase in an Area and DO NOT move your U-boat, right? In some other threads, there seem to be some other strange variations of this rule, e.g. you draw the Event cards for Patrolling after you COMPLETE your movement in an Area, in addition to drawing the Event cards for moving INTO this area... but this is wrong, right?


You're right.

You draw event cards for moving into an area also, but you have to check the number after the "Moving" text. You never draw for "Patrolling" & "Moving" at the same time.

Sorry for any fault or misunderstanding, English is not my native tongue
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Lipa LeChuck
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Awesome! Thank you very much for the answers!
 
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Lipa LeChuck
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One more thing, trying to figure out the "framework" of segments etc...

So a "Campaign" consists of many "Strategic Segments".

A "Strategic Segment" consists of as many "Operations Segments" as there are U-boats: for each U-boat, perform movement, events, special missions, combat, refit.

Being or not being in Port is irrelevant in terms of Segments (at first I though that a Strategic Segment is basically a Patrol, but this is not the case).

If all of the above is correct, it means that:
- I can spend SO points to purchase Air Search, Intel, Special Missions etc. before each new "movement round" of the U-boats, the U-boats do not need to be in Port (except where clearly stated so in the rules, e.g. for advanced torpedoes etc.)
- at the end of the Strategic Segment, I must also remove the "Air Search" and "Supply" counters from the Campaign card. Not sure why the rules only mention to remove the "Intel" and "Warning" counters. But what about the "Mine", "Attack", and "Raider" counters? Are they kept on the board until the mission is tried?

Thanks!
 
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fix benoit
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Hello !

A campaign consist not really of strategic segment but is a rollup of different segments in specific order :

1- Strategic segment
2- Operations Segment
3- Tactical Segment
4- Refit Segment
5- New Strategis segment
6- ....

When in the Refit Segment, you remove any Air Search & Supply ship also.

In the rules, you should understand : "The Air Search counter remains in this Area for this Strategic Segment." by "The Air Search ounter remains until the next Strategic Segment".

The special mission counters (mine & raider) are removed when the mission is finished :

- Remove the Mine Special Option counter and score the number of Victory Points shown in the Special Mine box.

Hope it's clearer for you
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Lipa LeChuck
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mirabellebenou wrote:
In the rules, you should understand : "The Air Search counter remains in this Area for this Strategic Segment." by "The Air Search ounter remains until the next Strategic Segment".


This!

It makes much more sense to me if I try to understand the flow of the game in terms of a series of segments (happening one after the other). The rules, however, lead me to believe that the segments are nested (one or more within the other)... Quite confusing.

In fact, although I absolutely love the game so far, I am a bit disappointed about the rules - some topics would really need more attention. This ambiguity regarding the "duration" of counters, the absence of the specific rule to draw ANOTHER Convoy card to determine special conditions, constant mention of the "Forward Operating Base", although there is no such thing in the game... I don't know, I'm not a game designer, but I think that things like these shouldn't be allowed to slip through the proof-reading and the revision process.

Thanks again for all the help!
 
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fix benoit
France
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For the FOB, I think that its for Gato Leader. However, the rule book is the same for the 2 games.
 
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Ernie Olsen
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LipaB wrote:
The rules, however, lead me to believe that the segments are nested (one or more within the other)... Quite confusing.


The tactical & Operations segments are nested within each other, and can be repeated for as many contacts/ammo you have remaining.

1) - Strategic Segment
2) - Operations Segment
3) - Tactical Segment
4) - Refit

Option to:
a) Repeat #3: Reload tubes, Spend a Contact and go re-attack Convoy.
b) Repeat #3: Reload tubes, Spend a Contact and draw new Convoy.

5) - New Operations Segment

Option to:
a) Repeat #2: Continue patrol. Draw for Events, roll for contacts.
b) Head back to port (Repeat #1).

Rinse, repeat
 
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Lipa LeChuck
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Here's another one, an Event card:

"Donitz Takes Notice: If you score 9 or more VPs during this Tactical Segment, gain 2 SO points."

This Tactical Segment? But we're drawing Event cards during the Operations Segment! We're not yet in the Tactical Segment. So - does it really mean the next Tactical Segment, possibly for the U-Boat that triggered the card (the rules clearly state that there are many Tactical Segments in a turn)? Or does it mean this Operations Segment - which doesn't make sense, unless Tactical Segments for each U-Boat are nested within the Operations Segment...

Aaaarghhhh...

To be honest, after a few plays the (intended) rules start to make sense, if you think about it. Sure, the above Event card most likely refers to all the Tactical Segments (for all U-Boats) that will take place after the current Operations Segment... But still, I just can't get past the fact that many things here are really poorly defined. Maybe I'm just overthinking the whole thing, maybe my technical background is in the way, but anyway - the Rulebook really could be improved. It seems to me as if it was put together rather hastily, copy-pasting here and there, and now not everything seems to be in place.
 
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Ernie Olsen
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Well, since your victory points come mainly from sinking ships in the tactical segment I think the answer is self evident. But I agree with you that the rules are not entirely logical as written, but if this is your first DVG game consider yourself lucky, because these rules are actually pretty clear compared to some other DVG titles.
 
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fix benoit
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Mellonhead3013 wrote:

1) - Strategic Segment
2) - Operations Segment
3) - Tactical Segment
4) - Refit
5) - New Operations Segment
Option to:
a) Repeat #2: Continue patrol. Draw for Events, roll for contacts.
b) Head back to port (Repeat #1).

Rinse, repeat


Hello !
Just a remark, I think that your #5 should be "New Strategic Segment".

You choose to continue patrol or head back to port for each sub in the Operations Segment. As in order to heading back, you don't teleport the sub to the port but you have to travel throught areas (and so, draw "moving" event cards).

I think it make more sense to do that way, so after each Refit segment, you reset the campaign map and all counters on it.
 
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Bret Hekking
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Acton
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I've also struggled with turn structure since the rules don't lay out a logical framework...and I've been playing wargames for 40+ years.

As I understand it, a Campaign (one complete game) consists of a series of turns, and each turn is made up of four sequential Segments: Strategic > Operations > Tactical > Refit.

The game ends when each of your Subs completes all of its Patrols or is Sunk.

The problem is that the rules use many terms like 'Turn' inconsistently.
 
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