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Subject: My Idea - Wuxia Dungeon Crawl rss

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ghost whistler
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For my own amusement, I thought i'd turn my hand to a project. I'm a big fan of the wuxia genre and thought a game in this genre might be the best way to represent it (in a more cartoony way than overly serious, tonally speaking).

But these sorts of games make use of attributes that aren't terribly thematic: tactical movement and cover don't feature heavily in battles between martial artists, even when throwing magical spells at range.

Also I'm wondering how to represent a map in a simpler way than having to setup (and thus design) loads of tiles. Something perhaps more abstract rather than a strict wargame grid (for reasons also just mentioned).

I imagine environments such as a Dark Forest in the Jianghu, an Evil Temple, or an Imperial Castle.

Thematically the game would be more about combat than exploration.
 
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Warren Fitzpatrick
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Lots of games have similar feel for combat - Mage wars immediately springs to mind of a versus game. Granted, they do combat via magic and such, but it's not hard to imagine going toward more hand to hand combat w/ a similar setup as far as the arena. Your interest could be driven by more characters w/ unique styles of Wuxia.

wf
 
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James Arias
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Love the theme idea.

Maybe instead of a complex map ala Warhammer Quest et. al. a more simple tile layer with locations like "antechamber", "village square", "graveyard", "tower", etc. Might mean you'd need scenarios, as random draws could result in a nonsensical map.

Whether or not you'd need a grid would depend if it's going to be tactically literal or abstract. Also if 1 vs. many or duels. If you're doing abstract combat like card plays for fighting then maybe the tile is just a location and there's no literal positional maneuvers or other tactical things so no grid required, and they can all be squares with cool artwork.

Not Wuxia but fight scenes from Legend of Eight Samurai, Black Gate or even Big Trouble in Little China come to mind.

Would you have loot & leveling? Like finding the Green Destiny Sword . Or starting out as the student, or wronged villager, or superpowered hero, and gain new moves and powers throughout the game?

Who would be your enemies? Grunts, other martial artists, evil spirits?
 
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ghost whistler
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warrenfitz45 wrote:
Lots of games have similar feel for combat - Mage wars immediately springs to mind of a versus game. Granted, they do combat via magic and such, but it's not hard to imagine going toward more hand to hand combat w/ a similar setup as far as the arena. Your interest could be driven by more characters w/ unique styles of Wuxia.

wf
I was thinking more in the vein of 1 v all/cooperative type games such as Zombicide or Imperial Assault than a straight multiplayer brawl type affair.
 
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ghost whistler
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crazybyzantine wrote:
Love the theme idea.

Maybe instead of a complex map ala Warhammer Quest et. al. a more simple tile layer with locations like "antechamber", "village square", "graveyard", "tower", etc. Might mean you'd need scenarios, as random draws could result in a nonsensical map.

Whether or not you'd need a grid would depend if it's going to be tactically literal or abstract. Also if 1 vs. many or duels. If you're doing abstract combat like card plays for fighting then maybe the tile is just a location and there's no literal positional maneuvers or other tactical things so no grid required, and they can all be squares with cool artwork.

Not Wuxia but fight scenes from Legend of Eight Samurai, Black Gate or even Big Trouble in Little China come to mind.

Would you have loot & leveling? Like finding the Green Destiny Sword . Or starting out as the student, or wronged villager, or superpowered hero, and gain new moves and powers throughout the game?

Who would be your enemies? Grunts, other martial artists, evil spirits?


Yes, some kind of modular tile setup.

The reason why zombie games are so popular though for this type of game is that their nature as monsters lends to a problem that players have to solve: endlessly spawning shambling monsters that always chase the players. The foes in a wuxia environment aren't that way inclined (unless they are Jinagshi ). Also ranged combat, as I mentioned, and particularly cover mechanics aren't thematically a factor. YOu don't do kungfu from behind a wall!

So the game should be tactical in that it should be interesting to play with meaningful choices, but how to represent them thematically? It's easy with something like Zombicide (which i mention above for no particular reason other than it being a similar style if a little more simplsitic than I'd like) where players can fight with guns at range and use cover.
 
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Daniel Reid
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Cover and tactical positioning are common in Wuxia style fights, but those elements may not seem as obvious as in a firefight.

Tactics:
Think of all the movement you see in a group battle. The hero doesn't just stand there going toe to toe with each bad guy in turn (well, sometimes, true). They will strike some down, rush to the other side of the enclosing circle of enemies and force them back. The hero will "retreat" until they are near throwable objects or weapons they can grab. Meanwhile, the bad guys will try to flank, get in attacks from behind, or attempt to bum rush.

Cover:
Think of all the fights in bamboo forests, outdoor (indoor also) taverns and temples. Anything vertical is cover from fists and feet, until someone kicks or punches through it. Tables, pots, anything that can block one side while the hero is attacking on the other. The key, though, is that cover in a kung fu melee can be broken or weaponized or broken then weaponized.
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James Arias
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Hammuabi wrote:
Cover and tactical positioning are common in Wuxia style fights, but those elements may not seem as obvious as in a firefight.

Tactics:
Think of all the movement you see in a group battle. The hero doesn't just stand there going toe to toe with each bad guy in turn (well, sometimes, true). They will strike some down, rush to the other side of the enclosing circle of enemies and force them back. The hero will "retreat" until they are near throwable objects or weapons they can grab. Meanwhile, the bad guys will try to flank, get in attacks from behind, or attempt to bum rush.

Cover:
Think of all the fights in bamboo forests, outdoor (indoor also) taverns and temples. Anything vertical is cover from fists and feet, until someone kicks or punches through it. Tables, pots, anything that can block one side while the hero is attacking on the other. The key, though, is that cover in a kung fu melee can be broken or weaponized or broken then weaponized.


And if we're gonna get Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon-esque, heroic leaps onto ledges, tree branches, etc. to escape encirclement or force foe to waste an action following up instead of striking (Unless they have weird powers like "force push").

And for those tavern fights, kicking/throwing objects at each other for improvised ranged weapons
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ghost whistler
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Hammuabi wrote:
Cover and tactical positioning are common in Wuxia style fights, but those elements may not seem as obvious as in a firefight.

Tactics:
Think of all the movement you see in a group battle. The hero doesn't just stand there going toe to toe with each bad guy in turn (well, sometimes, true). They will strike some down, rush to the other side of the enclosing circle of enemies and force them back. The hero will "retreat" until they are near throwable objects or weapons they can grab. Meanwhile, the bad guys will try to flank, get in attacks from behind, or attempt to bum rush.

Cover:
Think of all the fights in bamboo forests, outdoor (indoor also) taverns and temples. Anything vertical is cover from fists and feet, until someone kicks or punches through it. Tables, pots, anything that can block one side while the hero is attacking on the other. The key, though, is that cover in a kung fu melee can be broken or weaponized or broken then weaponized.


the cover you're thinking isn't really viable in a boardgame (unless you're smarter than I, which isn't unlikley). You're talking about when someone like Jackie Chan ducks behind a shelf and the enemy smashes some claypots or a vase instead of Jackie's face. I'm not really sure how that could work. It's not traditional cover and I suspect would only serve to make the game needlessly fiddly when what you want is flowing action and momentum.
 
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Daniel Reid
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ghost whistler wrote:
It's not traditional cover and I suspect would only serve to make the game needlessly fiddly when what you want is flowing action and momentum.


Games are generally about abstraction. Well, not about abstraction, but heavily involved with it. I can think of a few ways to handle it without making it too component heavy, but honestly, I would like to have little table tokens to move around.

You place them on a tile , one side could be a table with cover bonuses for adjacency, and one side is a broken table which occurs after a heavy attack or after the table is thrown. Of course, you could just remove it from the board if its thrown.
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Daniel Reid
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Thinking about it though, I have a hard time seeing how to make a Wuxia game without it being somewhat fiddly. A common element among these films and stories is that the fighters switch up techniques or styles, weapons and whatever during the course of an adventure (or even a fight). That part seems difficult to capture without a degree of granularity that could slow down gameplay.


 
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Norman L.
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so basically, journey: wrath of demons + dragon tides?
 
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James Arias
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I like the idea of "counters for props one side cover until smashed, other side improvised weapon" along with some "kickables" / "throwables".

A lot of fighting games rely on a hand of moves, each combatant plays a "maneuver" card secretly, double reveal and some game logic determines what happens. Nice for the heroes and villains, but if there will be cannon fodder bad guys maybe something simpler works better.

Gets back to desired level of abstraction ... how granularly are you trying to recreate the cinematic crazy acrobatic fight scenes.

I'm a big fan of minis games so don't mind pushing around little dudes, checking LOS, playing cards/rolling dice, etc. (and I include Flash Point in this mix). But I also like games like Munchkin, Pandemic, Forbidden Island where the action is much more abstracted but it's still a fun experience and immersive theme.
 
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Daniel Reid
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crazybyzantine wrote:
I like the idea of "counters for props one side cover until smashed, other side improvised weapon" along with some "kickables" / "throwables".



Obviously, the solution is to make a Wuxia game similar to Flick 'em Up. But add in techniques(flicking upward, flicking tables, flicking the hero to ricochet off walls and into a mass of enemies) that are active under conditions .

Ok, maybe not what the OP is talking about.cool
 
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ghost whistler
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Hammuabi wrote:
Thinking about it though, I have a hard time seeing how to make a Wuxia game without it being somewhat fiddly. A common element among these films and stories is that the fighters switch up techniques or styles, weapons and whatever during the course of an adventure (or even a fight). That part seems difficult to capture without a degree of granularity that could slow down gameplay.


I don't really see that. they don't really change styles, maybe the odd weapon. But these movies don't focus in these ways.
 
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James Arias
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Hammuabi wrote:
crazybyzantine wrote:
I like the idea of "counters for props one side cover until smashed, other side improvised weapon" along with some "kickables" / "throwables".



Obviously, the solution is to make a Wuxia game similar to Flick 'em Up. But add in techniques(flicking upward, flicking tables, flicking the hero to ricochet off walls and into a mass of enemies) that are active under conditions .

Ok, maybe not what the OP is talking about.cool


Extra point if flick with zinger like "It is my destiny to defeat you!"

Time to go read my Way of the Rat comics again.
 
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ghost whistler
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crazybyzantine wrote:
I like the idea of "counters for props one side cover until smashed, other side improvised weapon" along with some "kickables" / "throwables".

A lot of fighting games rely on a hand of moves, each combatant plays a "maneuver" card secretly, double reveal and some game logic determines what happens. Nice for the heroes and villains, but if there will be cannon fodder bad guys maybe something simpler works better.

Gets back to desired level of abstraction ... how granularly are you trying to recreate the cinematic crazy acrobatic fight scenes.

I'm a big fan of minis games so don't mind pushing around little dudes, checking LOS, playing cards/rolling dice, etc. (and I include Flash Point in this mix). But I also like games like Munchkin, Pandemic, Forbidden Island where the action is much more abstracted but it's still a fun experience and immersive theme.
I think fliek em up would drive me nuts to play!

 
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Daniel Reid
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ghost whistler wrote:
Hammuabi wrote:
Thinking about it though, I have a hard time seeing how to make a Wuxia game without it being somewhat fiddly. A common element among these films and stories is that the fighters switch up techniques or styles, weapons and whatever during the course of an adventure (or even a fight). That part seems difficult to capture without a degree of granularity that could slow down gameplay.


I don't really see that. they don't really change styles, maybe the odd weapon. But these movies don't focus in these ways.


I suppose it depends on the film in question, but it seems to me that there is always someone trying to learn the secret style or sacred technique or whatever. Though, there are the instances where the protagonist has secret techniques they don't bust out all that often, waiting until the very end...and then it turns out the bad guy is secretly a dragon or something.

Edit: There are secrets, secret secrets, sacred secrets, hidden secrets and super sacred secret secrets.
 
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ghost whistler
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Each hero would have kungfu - special abilities - as you would expect.

But the sort of thing you are referring to would best be represented by a scenario goal: find/rescue the Mystical Scroll, for example.
 
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Daniel Reid
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So, no character progression? That simplifies things.
 
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ghost whistler
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Hammuabi wrote:
So, no character progression? That simplifies things.
No, i'm not saying that. Just not burdening players down with moves and stances and what have you.
 
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Daniel Reid
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So, what kind of combat system are you picturing?
 
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Pierre C
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Based on what many of you are describing, have a look at A Fistful of Kungfu.
 
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ghost whistler
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Interesting. Is it any good?

I thought about a more conventional wargame, as opposed to a boardgame, but I wasn't sure it would work to best convey the style.
 
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Sturv Tafvherd
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ghost whistler wrote:
For my own amusement, I thought i'd turn my hand to a project. I'm a big fan of the wuxia genre and thought a game in this genre might be the best way to represent it (in a more cartoony way than overly serious, tonally speaking).

But these sorts of games make use of attributes that aren't terribly thematic: tactical movement and cover don't feature heavily in battles between martial artists, even when throwing magical spells at range.

Also I'm wondering how to represent a map in a simpler way than having to setup (and thus design) loads of tiles. Something perhaps more abstract rather than a strict wargame grid (for reasons also just mentioned).

I imagine environments such as a Dark Forest in the Jianghu, an Evil Temple, or an Imperial Castle.

Thematically the game would be more about combat than exploration.


Have you seen Shadowfist
 
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ghost whistler
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Indeed, but i'm not sure I want to design a CCG.

Good game though, I played it back in the day.
 
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