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The Resistance: Avalon» Forums » Variants

Subject: allow merlin to vote negative? avalon rss

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maitqt huqet
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if merlin is the first to pick teams, and you know the other evil vill vote positive to fool players. shouldnt merlin be able to vote negative to expose the other evil player.

percival might pick up on this.

i did it in a 3 way just to expose 2 minions. its not allowed but makes for intresting whith experienced players. what ya think?

its like doublecrossing.
 
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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If Merlin would be allowed to vote negative, wouldn't his identity be obvious to the evil?
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Ian Toltz
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If you're going to do it, you need to allow anyone to throw failures. Otherwise, as pointed out, you've severely narrowed down if not pin-pointed the identity of Merlin.

Of course, only Merlin (and maybe Percival) can really do that to great effect. So the only reason for another good guy to throw a failure would be to bluff Merlin. Which is a huge risk because if they do it when there aren't any other evil guys then you just failed the mission for no good reason and also confused all of your fellows.

It's not a bad idea for a house rule, but it doesn't really hold up if you think about it.

You might check out the Reverser module from... one of the Resistance expansions (I can never remember which is the Avalon clone and which has the original modules). Also, the Excalibur/Sergeant module.
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You are mixing terms. Voting is what you do during team selection. Submitting success or fail is what team members do during the mission.

No, Merlin or any other loyal cannot submit a fail.
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Clyde W
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rippmaster wrote:
if merlin is the first to pick teams, and you know the other evil vill vote positive to fool players. shouldnt merlin be able to vote negative to expose the other evil player.

percival might pick up on this.

i did it in a 3 way just to expose 2 minions. its not allowed but makes for intresting whith experienced players. what ya think?

its like doublecrossing.
Dont say "vote negative", say "fail the mission." And of course no, this outs Merlin and causes good to lose.
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Clyde W
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nhjelmberg wrote:
If Merlin would be allowed to vote negative, wouldn't his identity be obvious to the evil?
Also why would he give up the ability to gain a point?
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John
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Asmor wrote:
You might check out the Reverser module from... one of the Resistance expansions (I can never remember which is the Avalon clone and which has the original modules). Also, the Excalibur/Sergeant module.

Reverser is from The Resistance: Hostile Intent, the Avalon roles (including Lancelot) are in Hidden Agenda. Sergeant is in the upcoming The Plot Thickens.

Checking out the Reverser module seems like a good idea.
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maitqt huqet
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when you played 100 times with a group you know if it is you as merlin and 2 minions on a mission. probability is high that just 1 of the other two minions will submit a mission fail card.

by merlin givin a mission fail card, and thereby claiming he Know who the evil players are (2 of 3 cards fail) he can thereby out the minions without revealing himself as merlin?

ofc if he does it in vote1 the other minion knows merlin so thats not good come of think of it.
 
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Rob Rundle
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rippmaster wrote:
when you played 100 times with a group you know if it is you as merlin and 2 minions on a mission. probability is high that just 1 of the other two minions will submit a mission fail card.

by merlin givin a mission fail card, and thereby claiming he Know who the evil players are (2 of 3 cards fail) he can thereby out the minions without revealing himself as merlin?

ofc if he does it in vote1 the other minion knows merlin so thats not good come of think of it.


Problem #1: the spies know he is Merlin.

Problem #2: the other good guys think he is probably a spy - from their point of view, why should he be the good one?

Sorry, but this idea doesn't work. The rule requiring all good guys to play success cards is there for a very sensible reason.
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maitqt huqet
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in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
 
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Leonard Smith
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yes. terrible idea. you've given way more information to the spies than to the other resistance players.
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Pasi Ojala
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rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself

Like already argued above, there are no such scenarios.

(And if Mordred is used Merlin doesn't even know if he's in a mission with two minions.)
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rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
Please answer this directly...why would Merlin out himself to spies?
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clydeiii wrote:
rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
Please answer this directly...why would Merlin out himself to spies?

If we allow Merlin to throw a fail then:

Even if it's Merlin, Loyal Servant, Minion, Minion and Merlin thinks it's a 70% change of a single fail then throwing a fail would be ultra risky. That's a 30% chance of an instant loss (if there are 3 fails) and a 50% chance of a loss due to assassination after a double fail (since one of the spies know that Merlin threw the fail, there are now only two possible Merlin candidates).
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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zabdiel wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
Please answer this directly...why would Merlin out himself to spies?

If we allow Merlin to throw a fail then:

Even if it's Merlin, Loyal Servant, Minion, Minion and Merlin thinks it's a 70% change of a single fail then throwing a fail would be ultra risky. That's a 30% chance of an instant loss (if there are 3 fails) and a 50% chance of a loss due to assassination after a double fail (since one of the spies know that Merlin threw the fail, there are now only two possible Merlin candidates).


... and even if we disregard the risk, how will this help the loyal servants to identify the minions?
 
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maitqt huqet
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if 2 spies and merlin vote, minions will think minions both voted fail. that way merlin did not out himself, but rather outed the minions without saying a word.

with both spies have cleared a mission 2 player (first mission) bringin in merlin will make the group think merlin is evil.
the only reasonable action here for an experienced merlin is to vote fail.
 
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maitqt huqet
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agreed. if mordred is used then its a no go. i was just sayin there ar certain, alblait few, instances where merlin can vote fail to out the minions, without saying a word, thus not revealing himself as merlin.
 
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rippmaster wrote:
if 2 spies and merlin vote, minions will think minions both voted fail.

So you are saying that the minion who submitted success will think he submitted fail instead?
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maitqt huqet
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nhjelmberg wrote:
zabdiel wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
Please answer this directly...why would Merlin out himself to spies?

If we allow Merlin to throw a fail then:

Even if it's Merlin, Loyal Servant, Minion, Minion and Merlin thinks it's a 70% change of a single fail then throwing a fail would be ultra risky. That's a 30% chance of an instant loss (if there are 3 fails) and a 50% chance of a loss due to assassination after a double fail (since one of the spies know that Merlin threw the fail, there are now only two possible Merlin candidates).


... and even if we disregard the risk, how will this help the loyal servants to identify the minions?


Ok. here is the backstory

Mission 1. 2 evil minions vote succes. Everyone thinks these are good.

Mission 2. same 2 evil minions bring in merlin (me) in an attempt to make merlin seem suspicious.

- Me as merlin know i cant say anything, otherwize im screwed at the end

ONLY way to save face and backfire to the minions in this 3man mission is to vote fail. Bcause i KNOW ... really... that tops 1 evil vill vote fail. really i know this.

so.

I vote fail, and the mission is 2 fails and 1 succes.

- without having said a word. many people now knows 2 people in this 3 group are evil. as a "regular servant" i can now say
- i know these two are evil. (because im good and must vote yes).


what should ive done othewize in this case?
i think it was a smart move, but that also this should be a legit move. it isnt legit move due to the rules as it is.
merlin is supposed to help the good team as much as possible i think, even if it means voting negative (in special circumstances) to out evil minions.

dosnt anybody see the positives that can be gained, allowing merlin to vote fail? if no one here sees any positives, then ill give up on the idea. i trust you hardcore boardgame guys to give feedback.

 
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Pasi Ojala
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rippmaster wrote:
I vote fail, and the mission is 2 fails and 1 succes.

Now the minion who submitted success knows you're Merlin because there were two fails. Game over.

rippmaster wrote:
what should ive done othewize in this case?

Depends on who suggested the team.
a) Vote against the team and say you wanted to see more team suggestions and suspect there was at least one spy.
b) Let one fail come up, then suggest a mirror team to see if the team contained two spies.
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Nico
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rippmaster wrote:
nhjelmberg wrote:
zabdiel wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
rippmaster wrote:
in scenarios when merlin can out minions, by failing mission card, without revealing himself, shouldnt he be allowed to do so?

case 1 merlin 2 minions go on a mission. merlin knwing that 70% both minions vote pass?
Please answer this directly...why would Merlin out himself to spies?

If we allow Merlin to throw a fail then:

Even if it's Merlin, Loyal Servant, Minion, Minion and Merlin thinks it's a 70% change of a single fail then throwing a fail would be ultra risky. That's a 30% chance of an instant loss (if there are 3 fails) and a 50% chance of a loss due to assassination after a double fail (since one of the spies know that Merlin threw the fail, there are now only two possible Merlin candidates).


... and even if we disregard the risk, how will this help the loyal servants to identify the minions?


Ok. here is the backstory

Mission 1. 2 evil minions vote succes. Everyone thinks these are good.

Mission 2. same 2 evil minions bring in merlin (me) in an attempt to make merlin seem suspicious.

- Me as merlin know i cant say anything, otherwize im screwed at the end

ONLY way to save face and backfire to the minions in this 3man mission is to vote fail. Bcause i KNOW ... really... that tops 1 evil vill vote fail. really i know this.

so.

I vote fail, and the mission is 2 fails and 1 succes.

- without having said a word. many people now knows 2 people in this 3 group are evil. as a "regular servant" i can now say
- i know these two are evil. (because im good and must vote yes).


what should ive done othewize in this case?
i think it was a smart move, but that also this should be a legit move. it isnt legit move due to the rules as it is.
merlin is supposed to help the good team as much as possible i think, even if it means voting negative (in special circumstances) to out evil minions.

dosnt anybody see the positives that can be gained, allowing merlin to vote fail? if no one here sees any positives, then ill give up on the idea. i trust you hardcore boardgame guys to give feedback.



How does the discussion at the end of the game, after three successful missions work? The evil player just tell each other when they failed a mission so it's obvious that the last missing fail is from the Merlin player.
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Clyde W
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rippmaster wrote:
if 2 spies and merlin vote, minions will think minions both voted fail. that way merlin did not out himself, but rather outed the minions without saying a word.
..? That's not how the game works.

If the mission is Merlin Spy Spy and Spy #1 fails and Merlin fails, then Spy #2 tells the truth and says he didn't fail and therefore that third player is clearly Merlin, and spies win.
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clydeiii wrote:
rippmaster wrote:
if 2 spies and merlin vote, minions will think minions both voted fail. that way merlin did not out himself, but rather outed the minions without saying a word.
..? That's not how the game works.

If the mission is Merlin Spy Spy and Spy #1 fails and Merlin fails, then Spy #2 tells the truth and says he didn't fail and therefore that third player is clearly Merlin, and spies win.


I think he is saying the results come back 1 fail. and both spies feel the other threw the fail.
 
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mfl134 wrote:
I think he is saying the results come back 1 fail. and both spies feel the other threw the fail.

But that is the optimal result for spies - a failed mission with only 1 fail. The result would only tell there was at least one spy in there, nothing more. And if the mission was suggested by the Merlin player, that player could become very untrustworthy in the eyes of the other loyals.
 
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a1bert wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
I think he is saying the results come back 1 fail. and both spies feel the other threw the fail.

But that is the optimal result for spies - a failed mission with only 1 fail. The result would only tell there was at least one spy in there, nothing more. And if the mission was suggested by the Merlin player, that player could become very untrustworthy in the eyes of the other loyals.


i'm not saying the rest of it logically holds, I just don't think he is painting a picture of a situation with spy, spy, merlin and 2 fails with spies that think merlin isn't on the team.
 
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