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Subject: [SPOILERS] Raiding questions - rules 16 and 19 rss

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Joe fakelastnameson
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[SPOILERS] Raiding questions - rules 16 and 19

SPOILERS BELOW, so if you don't want to be spoiled, seriously stop reading and back out.:


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Hi! My friends and I are in game 4 of our campaign and we're loving the game so far.

That said, I have a couple of questions about raiding ships and colonies that are unclear to us in the rules.

1. Does provincial permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
2. Does provincial permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
3. Does island permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
4. Does island permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
5. How do "at war with" enmity tokens effect ship/colony raiding on attack and defense?


Here are some specific scenarios we're not sure how to handle.

The setup:
Grey has 3 permanent enmity stickers on Red's province.
Grey has 2 permanent enmity stickers at island A.
Island A has a garrison value of 1.
Grey has 1 enmity token from red in his at war section.


The ship scenario:
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.

Grey's starting unmodified die pool is 9 dice (this does not include a die for the "at war with" enmity he has from red). How many dice will he roll and how much enmity will he give?


The ship with colony scenario:
Exact same situation, but now red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.


same question.


The colony with ship scenario:
Just like the last example, Red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2, but this time grey wants to raid the colony instead of the ship.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's colony. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.


same question.


 
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David desJardins
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Can't you post these in the existing thread? Starting multiple threads is just going to make it harder to find answers.

[SPOILER] Rule 16
 
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Joe fakelastnameson
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I thought I was expanding on your previous question sufficiently to warrant a new topic.

You had asked specifically about 'at war with' enmity in ship raiding. I was also curious about whether permanent enmity at various map locations would effect a ship raid, and also curious about how that enmity effects colony raiding or colony defense.

sometimes when a significant expansion on the initial heading gets posted later in a thread it will get lost in the shuffle.
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David desJardins
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shadysjunk wrote:
sometimes when a significant expansion on the initial heading gets posted later in a thread it will get lost in the shuffle.


Always when there are lots of different threads about exactly the same rule it makes it much harder for the next 100 people to search for and find the answer.
 
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Tim Stack
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shadysjunk wrote:

That said, I have a couple of questions about raiding ships and colonies that are unclear to us in the rules.

1. Does provincial permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
2. Does provincial permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
3. Does island permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
4. Does island permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
5. How do "at war with" enmity tokens effect ship/colony raiding on attack and defense?


First, learn the difference between 'effect' and 'affect'.
Secondly, ...
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No
5. Enmity tokens in your At War section add dice to the raid rolls against that province's ships, colonies & province.


shadysjunk wrote:

Here are some specific scenarios we're not sure how to handle.

The setup:
Grey has 3 permanent enmity stickers on Red's province.
Grey has 2 permanent enmity stickers at island A.
Island A has a garrison value of 1.
Grey has 1 enmity token from red in his at war section.


The ship scenario:
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.

Grey's starting unmodified die pool is 9 dice (this does not include a die for the "at war with" enmity he has from red). How many dice will he roll and how much enmity will he give?


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 3 Sail - 2 IslandEnmity = 5 dice
The island garrison would not apply, because the garrison in this situation is the sail/raid of the defender. The provincial enmity only applies on raids on the province or colonies.

shadysjunk wrote:

The ship with colony scenario:
Exact same situation, but now red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.


same question.


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 3 Sail - 2 IslandEnmity - 1 DefenderControl = 4 dice
The island/colony garrison would not apply, because the garrison in this situation is the sail/raid of the defender. The provincial enmity only applies on raids on the province or colonies.

shadysjunk wrote:

The colony with ship scenario:
Just like the last example, Red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2, but this time grey wants to raid the colony instead of the ship.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's colony. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.


same question.


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 2 ColonyGarrison - 3 ProvinceEnmity - 1 DefenderControl - 1 SupportShip = 3 dice

EDIT: Clarified ColonyGarrison not IslandGarrison
 
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Matt S
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tjstack wrote:
shadysjunk wrote:

That said, I have a couple of questions about raiding ships and colonies that are unclear to us in the rules.

1. Does provincial permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
2. Does provincial permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
3. Does island permanent enmity effect ship raiding?
4. Does island permanent enmity effect colony raiding?
5. How do "at war with" enmity tokens effect ship/colony raiding on attack and defense?

First, learn the difference between 'effect' and 'affect'.
Secondly, ...
1. No
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No
5. Enmity tokens in your At War section add dice to the raid rolls against that province's ships, colonies & province.


The only one of these that I really disagree with is 3. An islands permanent enmity has no effect on raiding another players ship. The island does not care if you have been mean to another player.

tjstack wrote:
shadysjunk wrote:

Here are some specific scenarios we're not sure how to handle.

The setup:
Grey has 3 permanent enmity stickers on Red's province.
Grey has 2 permanent enmity stickers at island A.
Island A has a garrison value of 1.
Grey has 1 enmity token from red in his at war section.


The ship scenario:
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.

Grey's starting unmodified die pool is 9 dice (this does not include a die for the "at war with" enmity he has from red). How many dice will he roll and how much enmity will he give?


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 3 Sail - 2 IslandEnmity = 5 dice
The island garrison would not apply, because the garrison in this situation is the sail/raid of the defender. The provincial enmity only applies on raids on the province or colonies.


I believe the total is wrong. You do not subtract the Island Enmity or anything regarding the island as neither player is in control of this island. 7 dice should be the total.

tjstack wrote:
shadysjunk wrote:

The ship with colony scenario:
Exact same situation, but now red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's sail-3 ship. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.

same question.


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 3 Sail - 2 IslandEnmity - 1 DefenderControl = 4 dice
The island/colony garrison would not apply, because the garrison in this situation is the sail/raid of the defender. The provincial enmity only applies on raids on the province or colonies.


I think this is a little off here as well. My understanding would be the following.

5 Raid + 4 Advisor + 1 AtWar - 3 Sail - 1 Defender Control = 6 dice.

You are raiding the ship no the colony or island. The enmity for those would be ignored.

tjstack wrote:
shadysjunk wrote:

The colony with ship scenario:
Just like the last example, Red has a colony at island A with a garrison value of 2, but this time grey wants to raid the colony instead of the ship.
Grey and Red both have a single ship at island A. Grey is attempting to use his raid-5 ship to raid Red's colony. Grey is using an advisor with +4 raid.

same question.


5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 2 IslandGarrison - 3 ProvinceEnmity - 1 DefenderControl - 1 SupportShip = 3 dice


Slight wording change here. Its important to distinguish between any garrison the island my have vs what a colony may have.

5 Raid + 4 RaidAdvisor + 1 AtWar - 2 ColonyGarrison - 3 ProvinceEnmity - 1 DefenderControl - 1 SupportShip = 3 dice
 
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Tim Stack
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Per Rob elsewhere, Island Enmity DOES apply when raiding ships at said island.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1633652/spoiler-rule-16

And corrected the garrison issue with 3rd example.
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
Per Rob elsewhere, Island Enmity DOES apply when raiding ships at said island.


I'm skeptical. Why would enmity assigned to the island apply to raids against ships that just happen to be located at the island? There's nothing I can see in the rules to support this conclusion. It's implausible enough that I would want to see Rob actually say it, not just a thirdhand account that could be based on a misunderstanding.
 
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Tim Stack
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Page 18 says that when raiding you lose dice from your dice pool for each of your enmity tokens and stickers the island has when raiding. It does not say not to do that during ship battles and I think Rob was confirming that. Thematically I think it represents natives/locals harassing and/or sabotaging your efforts when you try to raid a ship near their shores.
 
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TJ
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Can't you post these in the existing thread? Starting multiple threads is just going to make it harder to find answers.

[SPOILER] Rule 16


This thread also deals with colonies
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
Page 18 says that when raiding you lose dice from your dice pool for each of your enmity tokens and stickers the island has when raiding. It does not say not to do that during ship battles and I think Rob was confirming that. Thematically I think it represents natives/locals harassing and/or sabotaging your efforts when you try to raid a ship near their shores.


TJ clarified, in the other thread, that his response from Rob only applied to the province of the same player as the ships. I see no good reason to believe that it would also apply to an island, not controlled by that player. Nor to a different player's province.
 
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Tim Stack
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True, but like I said, it does not say not to do that when forming a raid dice pool and that is part of forming a raid dice pool. Perhaps he should reclarify in more detail.
 
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Matt S
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Again my main point against island enmity for the raising of the ships is the lack of inclusion of it in the rule examples in the book. Ship raiding is distinct enough to tell you how the dice pool is built differently.
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TJ
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UPDATE - It sounds like from Rob that province enmity protects you no matter where you are, so my conclusions about province enmity are not correct.

OK, I've thought about this way too much, here's how I've interpreted it all:

A) There is a distinction between regional enmity and player enmity, but it's not clearly defined in the rules

There are instances in the rules that refer to a player's enmity, as opposed to specific regions:

* Higher-ranked players give lower-ranked players enmity tokens at the beginning of the game
* The example in Rule 16 in raiding ships refers to a player having another player's enmity and removing a die as a result
* Rule 19 says to use the governor's (player that controls the colony) enmity instead of the island's enmity when raiding a colony

Player enmity is global, regional enmity only applies to raids in that specific region.

B) At War With enmity is player enmity

While not clearly defined, At War With enmity makes the most sense for what player enmity is, as it's the only place you can have another player's enmity that's not directly tied to a site/region. Raiding ship/colony rules say to put enmity tokens in the other player's At War With sections instead of a specific site/region.

C) Permanent enmity in a player's home harbor is not At War With enmity

The rules make a distinction that while At War With enmity can become permanent enmity stickers at the end of the game, it does not provide the attack bonus that At War With enmity does. These are two separate things. Those permanent enmity stickers are regional enmity for the province.

D) A region is defined as an area of land, ships float on water

A region is defined as an area of land: an island, a colony, a province. A space on a board contains a region(s). So your ships are in the same space as a region, but not necessarily in the region. Ship-to-ship takes place on water, not land, so region-specific enmity/rules/etc do not apply unless they say otherwise.

So with all that, here are my rulings:

1. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships, even in the home harbor space of the province (the ship raiding rules have a special +1/-1 die rule in these cases)
2. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies
3. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships
4. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies
5. At War With enmity DOES apply in all situations listed above
 
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Thomas Robb
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Help!

ALL of the answers and comments sound good

Rob and JR - help us out! surprise

 
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Tim Stack
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Slyght wrote:


So with all that, here are my rulings:

1. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships, even in the home harbor space of the province (the ship raiding rules have a special +1/-1 die rule in these cases)


Rob has said otherwise.

Slyght wrote:

2. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies


Except this is explicitly stated in the rules that province enmity DOES affect raiding colonies.

Slyght wrote:

3. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships


This is part of general raid rules and it does not say this island enmity is excluded when raiding ships.

Slyght wrote:

4. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies


Correct.

Slyght wrote:

5. At War With enmity DOES apply in all situations listed above


Correct.
 
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David desJardins
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Slyght wrote:
B) At War With enmity is player enmity

While not clearly defined, At War With enmity makes the most sense for what player enmity is, as it's the only place you can have another player's enmity that's not directly tied to a site/region.


I just don't think this is right. The most relevant statement in the rules is this:

Enmity represents hostility between provinces, or between an island and province. Enmity tokens represent the state of affairs in the current game. At the end of the game, some may turn into permanent enmity stickers which last from game to game until removed.

Every enmity token or sticker represents either (1) enmity between a province (player) and another province (player), or (2) enmity between a province (player) and an island (neutral). Provinces and players are indistinguishable for this purpose.

You are at war with another province if you have at least one of their enmity tokens in your At War With space on your province board. This allows you to use enmity on offense as well as defense. Each enmity token in your at war with section adds one die to your dice pool when raiding that province.

The only difference between At War tokens and other player-player enmity tokens is that they can be used on offense, not just defense.

Quote:
1. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships, even in the home harbor space of the province (the ship raiding rules have a special +1/-1 die rule in these cases)
2. Province enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies
3. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding ships
4. Island enmity DOES NOT affect raiding colonies
5. At War With enmity DOES apply in all situations listed above


1. Enmity from another player toward you does affect your raids of their ships. This is true regardless of whether that enmity is represented by At War tokens, tokens in their home province, or stickers in their home province. Enmity from you toward that player only affects your raids of their ships if it is At War enmity.
2. Enmity from another player toward you does affect your raids of their colonies. This is true regardless of whether that enmity is represented by At War tokens, tokens in their home province, or stickers in their home province. Enmity from you toward that player only affects your raids of their colonies if it is At War enmity.
3. Agreed. Enmity of an island toward you is ignored if you are raiding a third party at that island.
4. Agreed. This is expressly stated in the rules.
5. See above clarification for my opinion.

By the way, does the governor of a colony always control the sea space, or only if the colony is active?
 
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Matt S
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DaviddesJ wrote:
By the way, does the governor of a colony always control the sea space, or only if the colony is active?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
The text says "The governor controls the sea space where the colony is located." I take this to mean that it is always in control if you are the governor, whether or not the colony is active.

 
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David desJardins
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The ambiguity is in the previous sentence:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The colony card holder is the governor and gets the ability of the colony when it is active.


This has two possible interpretations:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
A) The colony card holder is the governor. When the colony is active, the governor gets the ability of the colony.
B) When the colony is active, the colony card holder is the governor and gets the ability of the colony.
 
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Tim Stack
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mcs1213 wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
By the way, does the governor of a colony always control the sea space, or only if the colony is active?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
The text says "The governor controls the sea space where the colony is located." I take this to mean that it is always in control if you are the governor, whether or not the colony is active.



Winter Phase
7. Activate Colonies
Starting with the astrolabe holder and going clockwise, players may activate colonies they control. ...

This pretty explicitly implies that you 'control' inactive colonies and with it the sea space where it is located.
 
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David desJardins
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tjstack wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
This pretty explicitly implies that you 'control' inactive colonies and with it the sea space where it is located.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
I tend to agree with your interpretation, but it can be read either way. If you control a colony, but it's not active, are you the "Governor" of that colony? The rules are unclear.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
The ambiguity is in the previous sentence:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The colony card holder is the governor and gets the ability of the colony when it is active.


This has two possible interpretations:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
A) The colony card holder is the governor. When the colony is active, the governor gets the ability of the colony.
B) When the colony is active, the colony card holder is the governor and gets the ability of the colony.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Ownership is control. Hence why I follow your A interpretation.


Spoiler: Rule 21
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Not sure which box it is in, but there is a way to Conquer an opponents colony. Hence why the owner of the card is always the governor and when the colony is active the governor will get its ability.
 
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Tim Stack
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DaviddesJ wrote:
tjstack wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
This pretty explicitly implies that you 'control' inactive colonies and with it the sea space where it is located.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
I tend to agree with your interpretation, but it can be read either way. If you control a colony, but it's not active, are you the "Governor" of that colony? The rules are unclear.


Rule 18:
... The colony card holder is the governor ...



 
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David desJardins
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Come on, Tim. I already pointed out there are two different ways to parse this sentence. Extracting one clause from part of the sentence and stripping away the prepositional phrase that can be read as qualifying that clause is just not helpful.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I just don't think this is right. The most relevant statement in the rules is this:

Enmity represents hostility between provinces, or between an island and province. Enmity tokens represent the state of affairs in the current game. At the end of the game, some may turn into permanent enmity stickers which last from game to game until removed.

Every enmity token or sticker represents either (1) enmity between a province (player) and another province (player), or (2) enmity between a province (player) and an island (neutral). Provinces and players are indistinguishable for this purpose.

You are at war with another province if you have at least one of their enmity tokens in your At War With space on your province board. This allows you to use enmity on offense as well as defense. Each enmity token in your at war with section adds one die to your dice pool when raiding that province.


Yeah, I see what you mean. The player is the province, so I can see how player enmity == province enmity and would apply to colony raiding. Ship raiding still feels like it would be prohibitively expensive to also apply province enmity, and the rules don't say to add it.

JR said him and Rob are reading these threads, so we should hopefully get an official response soon(ish).
 
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