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Subject: WAIT rss

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Loon
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I wasn't sure which forum to put this in... as it only applies to snellman and is more about etiquette than strategy. I also am a little surprised that this question hasn't been brought up yet, so I apologize in advance if I simply failed to find it. (Also, I won't link to any particular game because I want to avoid any potential shaming; but this situation has happened enough times with enough people that I'm sure others will know what I mean.)

EDIT: I am now satisfied that there's nothing better to be done. While both of the situations below are still possible, they actually have nothing to do with a WAIT command. Players can play slowly so that other players reveal more information, and some reveal this intention by using the WAIT command, but this isn't the fault of the WAIT command any more than it's the fault of their keyboard.

There are situations involving the WAIT command where I see it getting used to violate rulebook rules in order to get more information. I understand that there's no way to prevent these situations, but is this considered acceptable by the community, or should I be saying something to discourage it?

A typical situation:
Turn order is Swarmlings, Giants, Cultists, Alchemists
(so, okay, not a typical situation at all)

Swarmlings build a dwelling, offering 4 leech to the Alchemists.
The Alchemists desperately need 1 more power, but would rather not spend 3vp on it.
So the Alchemsits WAIT, hoping to get a better leech from another player.


This is not permitted by the rules, but I've seen enough high-ranking players do this for me to ask about it.

Here's another one:

Cultists offer leech to the Alchemists and Giants.
Alchemists want the leech, but don't want to give the Culists the free move.
They WAIT and see what the Giants decide.


Again, this is clearly in violation of the decision order. This has never happened to me in the role of the Giants, or I would WAIT right back at them. Again, is this acceptable (and the Giants player should know better?) Or is this something to discourage?

In my understanding, the intention of the WAIT command is to not penalize the Giants player in the second example in case the alchemist player takes a long time to make his decision about leeching. Are there other intended/acceptable uses?

Thanks for the clarifications!
And apologies to Alchemist players!
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Jochen Balzer
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Any violation in the decision order is not bending the rules but breaking the rules.

So this is completely inacceptable. A WAIT command is in my eyes just for signalizing that I e.g. had to go to the door, toilet, ...

A WAIT command pauses the whole game for me so everyone waits until the WAIT-player comes back and continues his move.

jm2c
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Matt Kremer
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The purpose of the "Wait" order is to force a player to make a non-turn decision in proper decision order. In both of the scenarios you outline, the "Wait" order is not actually available to the Alchemists player, but rather to the Giants player. If the Giants player thinks the Alchemists player would benefit from seeing subsequent actions, then he can order "Wait." However, this frequently does not happen, so players can gain an advantage by choosing to not move and hoping players after them take their turns and do not elect to order "Wait."
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Loon
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MattTheLesser wrote:
the "Wait" order is not actually available to the Alchemists player,


I agree with what you said in terms of the principles.

The problem is that the Alchemsist *do* have the "Wait" order available to them, and often use it. Admittedly, in each case they could accomplish the same thing by doing nothing at all, which makes enforcing any kind of penalty for this difficult. But should this get pointed out to such players (similar to mid-turn power conversions?)
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Juho Snellman
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jsnmthw wrote:
The problem is that the Alchemsist *do* have the "Wait" order available to them, and often use it.

I think Matt is correct, and the option is not available. In both of your cases the leech for the Alchemists is the first action in the queue, so any attempt at "wait"ing would just result in it being their turn again immediately.

Of course there might be some other deferred action from earlier still in the queue, and in that case the Alchemists could "wait" for that to finish before having to make their decision. But as far as I know it's impossible for the Alchemists to force the Giants to make the leech decision first in either of your examples. Counter-examples are welcome.
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Loon
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Ah, I see what you mean. My example 2 is off, but my example 1 still works. Example 2 would work if the turn order was Cultists, Swarmlings, Alchemists, Giants. (The Alchemists are "waiting" for the Swarmlings)

In each case, the Alchemists aren't forcing others to choose first (which you're right, is impossible) but pointedly allowing others to choose first (and make a tactical mistake by doing so.) In each case they could have taken advantage of the order of choice in the exact same way by simply doing nothing, but at least in that case they have to live with the "***TM" in their browser tab. devil

There really aren't any "fixes" that I can see. Example 1 is only fixed by enforcing leech decisions before others' take turns, which would probably double the length of games. (Obviously awful.) But I've seen this happen even at high levels of play. Example 2 is fixed by itself at high levels of play where people know not to give that sort of information away if it's important, but I've seen good players take advantage of weaker ones this way.

Both are against the actual game rules, and both are completely unenforcable online. My question is whether it's frowned upon anyway (like mid-turn power conversions) or considered acceptable.

EDIT: I just realized in re-reading this that the issues really aren't about the WAIT command at all. I thought so earlier because WAIT is identifying when people are intentionally bending the rules. Why else would you use WAIT in these situations?

(Also, I am aware that this is a TINY TINY TINY issue in the scope of the game. I certainly don't want to blow this out of proportion!)
 
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Space Trucker
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The only situation where it gets a bit fishy is when players delay leeching because they hope that another player is not aware that he could/should hit "wait" in this situation to deny some information (which could not only be further leech but also availability of a power action or a contested hex).

I guess in a competetive environment it would be okay to use "wait" quite liberaly (unless your sure that the information helps noone and that "wait" will only delay the game).

One other point where I'm not sure: Does "wait" reset the Chess Clock? If yes, then very liberal use of "wait" could grant a slow player significantly more time to delay a game.
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Robert
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For the sake of speed, the snellman moderator allows you to make some moves (leech or actual turn action) before it's due in the strict order as given by the rules. But you cannot set "Wait" if you actually *are* next in the strict order.

If the moderator says you can make a move and the options include the "Wait" button, then it's completely acceptable to use it. In the majority of situations it won't make a difference, because your decision won't influence other players, so it speeds up the game.

Typical situations when using the "Wait" button may make sense ("Wait, but why?" ):
- Cultists have built/upgraded something which offered leech to some other player(s) and yourself, and the other player(s) are first to decide whether to accept
- another player has an open offer to leech a lot of power (for a lot of VP), and your upcoming action may offer the same player less power (for less VP)
- another player has an open offer to leech, which would allow him/her to take a certain power action which you also want, but you'd rather take some other action first, so your decision whether to take the power action now or later depends on whether that other player can take it before you

jsnmthw wrote:
EDIT: I just realized in re-reading this that the issues really aren't about the WAIT command at all. I thought so earlier because WAIT is identifying when people are intentionally bending the rules. Why else would you use WAIT in these situations?
Using "Wait" isn't bending the rules. The other players whose lack of leeching decision causes someone to use "Wait": they might in some cases be the ones who hope to bend the rules.

SpaceTrucker wrote:
One other point where I'm not sure: Does "wait" reset the Chess Clock? If yes, then very liberal use of "wait" could grant a slow player significantly more time to delay a game.
I seem to remember that it does, but I'm not 100% sure. If so, the slow player could indeed increase the delay until the other players notice the pattern and leech right away.
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Matthias Reitberger
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DocCool wrote:

- another player has an open offer to leech a lot of power (for a lot of VP), and your upcoming action may offer the same player less power (for less VP)


Or your move gives him any other indication for taking it or not, like giving him no leech, taking an power action or anything else you do.

DocCool wrote:

I seem to remember that it does, but I'm not 100% sure. If so, the slow player could indeed increase the delay until the other players notice the pattern and leech right away.


It does, but your pattern doesn't make sense, because by leeching right away he would speed the game up. I had a case where a slow player used wait when ever he could to get more time for his move. He said that he needed to do this because he had so many games to play at the same time. Don't know who forced him to join them, I found that explanation quite annoying.
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Kester J
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I think this is the price we pay for speeding up games by not being strict about turn order. Honestly, I think it's probably worth it, even if it can be frustrating sometimes. I play Through the Ages online, and there I dread colonies coming up, because they initiate a round-the-table auction (players' turns are otherwise fairly compartmentalised) that drags on for ages; a colony-happy player can make a game take literally twice as long as one without. I suspect strict enforcement of leech order would have a similar effect on TM, or even worse because leech is more common.

What does the "strict-leech" option do, by the way? I assumed it did actually force leeches to be done in the right order, but it doesn't seem to as it's on in most games.
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Robert
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1869 wrote:
DocCool wrote:

I seem to remember that it does, but I'm not 100% sure. If so, the slow player could indeed increase the delay until the other players notice the pattern and leech right away.

It does, but your pattern doesn't make sense, because by leeching right away he would speed the game up.
You probably misinterpreted my sentence: rest assured, it makes a lot of sense.

It says "the other players notice the pattern and leech right away." Both verbs use the same subject, i.e. "the other players", as indicated by the word "and". If "leech" referred to "the slow player", it would have read "leeches".

Let me rephrase it: if the other players leech right away, the slow player won't gain extra grace from waiting 8h, send setting "Wait".
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