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Subject: Carnivore vs. Defensive Horns rss

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Nicole Lloyd
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There seems to be a flavor vs. rules issue with Defensive Horns.

The rules say merely that the attacking carnivore loses one population before eating. But this means you can often gain more food by sacrificing a member of the carnivore population that has already fed. Flavor-wise, the attacking carnivore loses one population because the prey is defending itself from its attackers, so the sacrificed animal must be attacking. And since only a hungry animal can attack, it seems that the animal you sacrifice should have to be one that is still hungry (i.e., has not yet fed).

For example, lets say I have a carnivore with a population of 5, and the only available prey has Defensive Horns. I attack, my carnivore population drops to 4, then the prey population drops by one, then I gain two food and feed two of my remaining population of 4. If I attack again, I'll have to choose another of my population to sacrifice--only now some of them are hungry and some are fed. If I sacrifice a hungry animal I will then have room for only one food from the eaten prey. If I instead sacrifice a fed animal, I'll still have two hungry animals who can eat both food produced by the eaten prey.

So the strategic play is to sacrifice an animal who (flavor-wise) is not even participating in the attack on the species with Defensive Horns. Or am I misreading the rules?
 
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Kilo Force
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You don't get a choice which ones you feed and which ones die. The rules say populations are feed from the top to the bottom, and populations are killed from the bottom to the top.

Quote:
"Place the Food on the Food spaces, starting with the top Population card for each species."

"Remove the bottom Population card of the attacked species and place it face-up in the Discard pile."


The only ambiguity might come from having the "Fat Tissue" trait, which allows for a second virtual food spot per population, but doesn't clarify the order of feeding the virtual food spots. So you might be able to fill all of the real food spots in the proper order, then fill the bottom population virtual spot of a predator, then kill him off by attacking horns, to feed the other virtual population spots above?
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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kiloforce wrote:
You don't get a choice which ones you feed and which ones die. The rules say populations are feed from the top to the bottom, and populations are killed from the bottom to the top.

Quote:
"Place the Food on the Food spaces, starting with the top Population card for each species."

"Remove the bottom Population card of the attacked species and place it face-up in the Discard pile."


The only ambiguity might come from having the "Fat Tissue" trait, which allows for a second virtual food spot per population, but doesn't clarify the order of feeding the virtual food spots. So you might be able to fill all of the real food spots in the proper order, then fill the bottom population virtual spot of a predator, then kill him off by attacking horns, to feed the other virtual population spots above?


laugh

Good point. You caught us on that one. The latest wording on the rules will clarify that issue (though those games won't hit store shelves for another 6 months). For now, you should also fill the Fat Tissue populations from the top down just like the original populations.

In short, only unfed (or still able to eat) populations will die from the attack.
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Tyler Lloyd
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Kilo - Your second quotation is from the rule for reducing the population of the ATTACKED species (i.e., the prey). I suppose it makes sense to interpret this as a general rule that applies whenever any species loses population for any reason, but the rules do not say this explicitly.
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Tyler Lloyd
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Dominic - thanks for weighing in. On an unrelated note, I've got a recommendation for future versions of the game: as the game progresses and the table fills up with species, space becomes an issue. It would be nice if the name of each trait card was on the very top, so you could stack the traits more compactly while still being able to clearly identify the traits.
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Benjamin Benson
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domcrap wrote:
kiloforce wrote:
You don't get a choice which ones you feed and which ones die. The rules say populations are feed from the top to the bottom, and populations are killed from the bottom to the top.

Quote:
"Place the Food on the Food spaces, starting with the top Population card for each species."

"Remove the bottom Population card of the attacked species and place it face-up in the Discard pile."


The only ambiguity might come from having the "Fat Tissue" trait, which allows for a second virtual food spot per population, but doesn't clarify the order of feeding the virtual food spots. So you might be able to fill all of the real food spots in the proper order, then fill the bottom population virtual spot of a predator, then kill him off by attacking horns, to feed the other virtual population spots above?


laugh

Good point. You caught us on that one. The latest wording on the rules will clarify that issue (though those games won't hit store shelves for another 6 months). For now, you should also fill the Fat Tissue populations from the top down just like the original populations.

In short, only unfed (or still able to eat) populations will die from the attack.


Will the updated rules be posted on BGG? I like that the rules are simple but they feel a little too simple in that I feel there are unanswered questions or a lack of clarity in some things.
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