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Subject: Picking up support weapons rss

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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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In our game today we weren't sure how to interpret the situation where a support weapon is alone in a hex and a how this is picked up by units moving through the hex. The relevant rule seems to be 7.14 "Support weapons may be picked up, transferred between stacked units (at the start of a new turn) or destroyed at no cost.

Does the qualifier of "at the start of a new turn" apply to only transferring between stacked units or is it also referring to picking up the support weapon, ie. can support weapons be picked up at any time (say while moving through a hex) or can this only be done at the start of a new turn (presumably in the "Attach leaders/weapons" phase)?

The rules for picking up /transferring support weapons seem a little inconsistent. If a unit is eliminated the support weapon is instantaneously moved to the other squad in a stack (if present), but if you wanted to transfer this between squads then you would have to wait to the beginning of the next turn to transfer it. Could this also lead to the case where a squad with a support weapon fires it, is eliminated and then if there is another squad in the hex it could also fire this support weapon?
 
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Maurice Fitzgerald
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Allen
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Bakon wrote:
In our game today we weren't sure how to interpret the situation where a support weapon is alone in a hex and a how this is picked up by units moving through the hex. The relevant rule seems to be 7.14 "Support weapons may be picked up, transferred between stacked units (at the start of a new turn) or destroyed at no cost.

Does the qualifier of "at the start of a new turn" apply to only transferring between stacked units or is it also referring to picking up the support weapon, ie. can support weapons be picked up at any time (say while moving through a hex) or can this only be done at the start of a new turn (presumably in the "Attach leaders/weapons" phase)?

The rules for picking up /transferring support weapons seem a little inconsistent. If a unit is eliminated the support weapon is instantaneously moved to the other squad in a stack (if present), but if you wanted to transfer this between squads then you would have to wait to the beginning of the next turn to transfer it. Could this also lead to the case where a squad with a support weapon fires it, is eliminated and then if there is another squad in the hex it could also fire this support weapon?


I read that the transfer only happens during the start of the new turn but weapons laying around can be picked up at any time, by anyone.

As for the second part, as long as the squad that picks up the lost support weapon is not already using one in a combat, then I would say they could use it.
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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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Thanks Maurice. This is how I read it as well but I just want to make sure.

It does seem to me a little odd that transferring from squad to squad would only happen at the beginning of the turn where-as a transfer as a result of a unit being eliminated or picking up a lone support weapon is instant. This also lessens the benefit of eliminating units that hold support weapons if it can just be transferred to another unit if it is eliminated.
 
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Eddie Carlson
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A similar question was asked about officers. The idea was to prevent a gamey tactic of having officers freely hop from squad to squad without using movements, essentially getting free rides all over the battle field. One could really stretch the idea of transferring equipment in a similar fashion. I'm not sure that is the intent, but that is my thought.

As far as picking up a weapon when a unit is eliminated, then maybe the squad you thought that was holding it wasn't really the one holding it. Or people are just that ready to take the gunner's place. Just tossing ideas out there.
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Martin Gallo
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O'Fallon
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I think the start of the turn transfer is from one of the SL modules. This is old school gaming, after all.whistle
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Shayne Logan
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Bakon wrote:
In our game today we weren't sure how to interpret the situation where a support weapon is alone in a hex and a how this is picked up by units moving through the hex. The relevant rule seems to be 7.14 "Support weapons may be picked up, transferred between stacked units (at the start of a new turn) or destroyed at no cost.

Does the qualifier of "at the start of a new turn" apply to only transferring between stacked units or is it also referring to picking up the support weapon, ie. can support weapons be picked up at any time (say while moving through a hex) or can this only be done at the start of a new turn (presumably in the "Attach leaders/weapons" phase)?

The rules for picking up /transferring support weapons seem a little inconsistent. If a unit is eliminated the support weapon is instantaneously moved to the other squad in a stack (if present), but if you wanted to transfer this between squads then you would have to wait to the beginning of the next turn to transfer it. Could this also lead to the case where a squad with a support weapon fires it, is eliminated and then if there is another squad in the hex it could also fire this support weapon?


Yes, the at the start qualifier is only used when transferring a weapon between units in a stack. Say a unit in a stack holding a LMG takes casualties. At the start of a new turn you could move the LMG to the full squad thereby getting better FP when only firing one of the squads.

You're right the support weapons are available normally when picked up or gained by the elimination of another squad in a stack.

In stacks without the transfer rule, some players could argue they could fire one squad with the LMG and then the other squad with the same LMG. Basically one squad will control it unless that squad is eliminated, then the remaining squad jumps on it.
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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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Thanks for the response Shayne. I can understand why you have the transfer rule to stop multiple units using the same support weapon.

I guess I feel that it would be more consistent to extend this transfer requirement to situations where a unit us eliminated or where a SW is picked up in a hex - otherwise you get the same effect of immediately using the same SW after another unit has used it. It was a little frustrating for me to eliminate a unit with a support weapon and then immediately have another squad in the hex being able to fire back at you with the same weapon.
 
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Jwel
Belgium
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I think the rules 7.11 avoid this kind of situation.

Quote:
A unit may only use 1 support weapon at a time
and that support weapon may only be used by that Squad in the turn. For example, in a stack of 2 Rifle Squads and a Lmg, the Lmg may only be used by the 1 Squad during the turn.
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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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Jwel wrote:
I think the rules 7.11 avoid this kind of situation.

Quote:
A unit may only use 1 support weapon at a time
and that support weapon may only be used by that Squad in the turn. For example, in a stack of 2 Rifle Squads and a Lmg, the Lmg may only be used by the 1 Squad during the turn.


Thanks Jwel. I don't know how I missed that! I am pretty sure this addresses my concerns which look like were from me overlooking this.
 
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Martin Gallo
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O'Fallon
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Edit: Upon reading the rules again (always s smart move) it seems pretty clear to me that:

A) If a squad carrying a support weapon is kia, that support weapon is automatically transferred to any squad it is stacked with, if desired (which is important, because...)

B) I am not 100% sure that the "new owner" may move or fire with the SW. I THINK it is stuck in place if the SW was moved or fired unless it does not take possession. I infer this from th statement that a SW may only be used once. making an un-carried SW as moved or fired seems a little odd, but works as a mnemonic.

C) A squad that "happens" across a SW just laying there must stay put until the Attach Leaders/SW phase at the start of the next turn if it wants to acquire that SW.

D) Crewed weapons are, apparently, easier to acquire during the action part of a game turn per rule 6.

E) I would be happy to treat SW as crewed weapons for purposes of mid-turn acquisition.
 
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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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martimer wrote:
Edit: Upon reading the rules again (always s smart move) it seems pretty clear to me that:

A) If a squad carrying a support weapon is kia, that support weapon is automatically transferred to any squad it is stacked with, if desired (which is important, because...)

B) I am not 100% sure that the "new owner" may move or fire with the SW. I THINK it is stuck in place if the SW was moved or fired unless it does not take possession. I infer this from th statement that a SW may only be used once. making an un-carried SW as moved or fired seems a little odd, but works as a mnemonic.

C) A squad that "happens" across a SW just laying there must stay put until the Attach Leaders/SW phase at the start of the next turn if it wants to acquire that SW.

D) Crewed weapons are, apparently, easier to acquire during the action part of a game turn per rule 6.

E) I would be happy to treat SW as crewed weapons for purposes of mid-turn acquisition.


Hi Martin,

This is not my understanding of the rules in the light of Shayne's response and Jwel's clarification. My understanding is that:
A. Agreed
B. If eliminated and transferred to a new squad in the stack the squad may not fire the SW - as per 7.11. I assume you can still move as there is no mention of this being prohibited, you just can't use it - which I am reading as firing.
C. Shayne clarified that units can pick up unattached SW at any time, as per 7.14.
D. It does seem easier that you could man and use a crewed weapon in the same turn it was used by another squad which was eliminated as long as you have the impulse points (6.4) and you treat it as moving fire (6.6). Mmm not sure if I like that but that seems to be the rule.
E. I am confused again, sigh. It seems these extra rules could be avoided by making it that you can only pick up, man or transfer to a new owner support weapons in the attach leader / support weapons phase.
 
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Shayne Logan
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Picked up SWs are available for immediate use.
 
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Jwel
Belgium
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Jamm22 wrote:
Picked up SWs are available for immediate use.


So what's purpose of rule 7.11 (the part I put in Bold : and that support weapon may only be used by that Squad in the turn) then ?

Yes, I see not allowing a sharing of the SW by 2 "alive" units but as such it can also be seen as not allowing another unit to use it if the previous unit owner is killed (the SW can be picked up but not used to fire).

Maybe this deserves a precision in the rule ?


 
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Craig Nicholls
Australia
Perth
Western Australia
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Jwel wrote:
Jamm22 wrote:
Picked up SWs are available for immediate use.


So what's purpose of rule 7.11 (the part I put in Bold : and that support weapon may only be used by that Squad in the turn) then ?

Yes, I see not allowing a sharing of the SW by 2 "alive" units but as such it can also be seen as not allowing another unit to use it if the previous unit owner is killed (the SW can be picked up but not used to fire).

Maybe this deserves a precision in the rule ?




I could be wrong here Jwel but perhaps Shayne is poiting out that it can be immediately used but I would assume 7.11 would still apply - so in the case you mention it couldn't be fired in the same turn.
 
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