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Subject: A new gaming site: BoardGameWiki.com rss

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Jorge Arroyo
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Hi,

I've created a new wiki for the discussion of board games. After all de debates lately, the bannings and the "games of power" on BGG, I've decided that a community run website is the best solution. I still like BGG for the other stuff and will keep coming here unless things get really bad (hope not). Aldie has done an excellent job with the site and its interface: The game's database, the geeklists, the trading system, etc... are all excellent reasons to visit and use the site.

But as I pointed out in another thread, I think a community run wiki can provide the grounds for more free discussion, so I created this site as a kind of "experiment". I intend to ban no one from the site (except for Spamming and other similar destructive behaviors), and if a ban was really necessary, it would be decided by the whole community. In fact, right now there are no specific terms for posting to the site (just the general terms for all wikidot pages)

I invite everyone to take a look (Michel Barnes, Steve Weeks and Aldie included ), there's a forum (feel free to suggest new categories) and some game's pages with links and some of my articles (well, right now one). To edit you must become a member, and then you can add whatever you want to the wiki (even game's pages). There's extensive help and it's easy to use... but contact me if you have questions.

So, here's a link: http://www.boardgamewiki.com

Enjoy,

-Jorge

Edit: Just want to make clear that this site's aim is not to substitute BGG. It's mostly an experiment to see if a community run wiki can work better after the latest "issues" with power on BGG.
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No thanks, but good luck!
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Will Haskell
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Cool!
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Jorge Arroyo
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pwn3d wrote:
I tried to start a thread there. But it gave me some error message about me not being a moderator. I got bored so I left.


Just join the site first... there's a link on the side bar to do it...

edit: where did you try to start the thread? supposedly all the forum categories are open to site members except for Site News...

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Jorge Arroyo
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pwn3d wrote:
I did join the site, and then I loggend in. No dice.


Did you join as pwn3d? because I can't see you in the Site Memeber's page... maybe you joined Wikidot, but not this specific wiki...

Other users seem to be posting fine (and I just reviewed the permissions)...
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Jorge Arroyo
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I saw your reply. Right now members of Wikidot can reply and only members of boardgamewiki can create new topics. Just click on the link on the sidebar that says How to join this site, then you can become a member of this wiki (it's automatic, I don't have to accept new members)

Wikidot is a wiki farm, the same login information you provide them when you register their site allows you to access all the wikis they host. It makes for a double registration the first time you access one of the wikis...
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Cool, thanks Jorge for starting up a Board Gaming Wiki I too think it's needed. YES I agree that BGG is in a lot of respects it's own kind of wiki in that the majority of the information is user supplied. Still this is the internet people there is room for more than 1 webpage out there about the same content. Hit Google and query "video games" and see how many sites come up. Do not think that BGG or BGN or Consimworld is going to go down in flames due to a wiki appearing. This can ONLY serve to help the hobby we all know and love. Do not be afraid of it, you don't have to join up, you don't have to contribute and you don't ever have to check the site out but don't fear it either. BGG is still the best gaming database and resource for board gamers out there. So says a 3 year running patron who did donate enough to be able to enable ad blocking each time I've donated.
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Jorge Arroyo
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thoia wrote:
BGG is still the best gaming database and resource for board gamers out there. So says a 3 year running patron who did donate enough to be able to enable ad blocking each time I've donated.


Thanks for the support For the record, I agree with you... Even with all that's happened recently, I'm still not going away from BGG, and it is the best resource for board gamers...

But I think the wiki will be an interesting experiment... The wiki is not so much an answer to the bannings themselves, but about who has the power to decide such an important thing on a site... That's mainly why I made it.
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Dave Dyer
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I think you've got the problem of competitive exclusion - there is
so much good stuff on BGG, it is hopeless to try to start another
general game portal.

In other words, you've got to specialize in something that
you perceive to be underserved by BGG.
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Paul Gregory
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Wiki? For freedom of expression?

maka wrote:
The wiki is not so much an answer to the bannings themselves, but about who has the power to decide such an important thing on a site... That's mainly why I made it.


You have created your own site to demonstrate that the person who decides this important thing is actually the owner of the site. You are the owner of the site, you have seemingly decided that bannings won't happen. Instead, you are just deleting abusive content.

I am tempted to register just to tidy up the atrocious spelling (note: the plural of game is games not game's), but I am not actually interested in joining a site that is primarily an experiment in how to run a site.

BoardGameWiki.com is not primarily motivated by a desire to share information about board games. It has more references to BGG than to board games. It is entirely unfriendly to people who are not already aware of BGG.

BGW is entirely a reaction to BGG, and I think makes it even clearer why BGG is one of the greatest sites on the net. If anyone wants to know what a game database + discussion site would look like without several years' worth of input from both the owner and the community at large, BGW is a perfect example. If anyone wants to know what a board game site would be like if it was shoehorned into an existing Wiki system rather than having lots of custom features, BGW is it.

And just to really make the whole venture even more pointless, BGW inherits a terms of service from the wiki-hosting service which insults like "You're being a big baby." and "You're an idiot." apparently fall foul of!!

So the absolute answer to "who has the power to ban" is "whoever provides the service that the community is using".

Total and utter vindication of Aldie. Well done. Experiment over.
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Jorge Arroyo
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paulgregory wrote:
Wiki? For freedom of expression?

maka wrote:
The wiki is not so much an answer to the bannings themselves, but about who has the power to decide such an important thing on a site... That's mainly why I made it.


You have created your own site to demonstrate that the person who decides this important thing is actually the owner of the site. You are the owner of the site, you have seemingly decided that bannings won't happen. Instead, you are just deleting abusive content.

I did delete abusive content. So what? there are clearly abusive content and clearly not abusive content. The problem is the stuff in the middle. The "borderline" stuff. I won't have any problem deleting spam from the site, and the user in question was posting abusive unrelated messages in the games' comment section.

Quote:

I am tempted to register just to tidy up the atrocious spelling (note: the plural of game is games not game's), but I am not actually interested in joining a site that is primarily an experiment in how to run a site.


You're welcomed to if you want.

Quote:

BoardGameWiki.com is not primarily motivated by a desire to share information about board games. It has more references to BGG than to board games. It is entirely unfriendly to people who are not already aware of BGG.


It is motivated by a desire to try and build a site that is owned by more than one person and where important decisions are taken by the community. It does have references to BGG (I admit maybe too many) and links for the games, but that is not entirely unfriendly to people that are not aware of BGG, I think the site is perfectly usable with no knowledge about BGG.

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BGW is entirely a reaction to BGG, and I think makes it even clearer why BGG is one of the greatest sites on the net. If anyone wants to know what a game database + discussion site would look like without several years' worth of input from both the owner and the community at large, BGW is a perfect example. If anyone wants to know what a board game site would be like if it was shoehorned into an existing Wiki system rather than having lots of custom features, BGW is it.


I don't think BGG looked so well in its first day. I know it's difficult for another general board games site to survive.

The reason the site was "shoehorned" as you say was to create a site in "neutral" ground. I used a wiki farm where if more people were to administer the site, they'd have exactly the same power as me. Also, this way everyone can contribute to make the site better through clever use of the wiki system.

Quote:

And just to really make the whole venture even more pointless, BGW inherits a terms of service from the wiki-hosting service which insults like "You're being a big baby." and "You're an idiot." apparently fall foul of!!

So the absolute answer to "who has the power to ban" is "whoever provides the service that the community is using".

Total and utter vindication of Aldie. Well done. Experiment over.


The experiment will be over if everyone decides to leave and no one else shows up. I have to accept the terms of service from the parent site, but the terms are the normal ones like any other site. I see no problem with that, and if content was flagged, it was because users flagged it...

Again the power to ban has nothing to do with this. In fact a user seems to be begging to be banned, but he's still there...
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Jorge Arroyo
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jgerman wrote:
maka wrote:
thoia wrote:
BGG is still the best gaming database and resource for board gamers out there. So says a 3 year running patron who did donate enough to be able to enable ad blocking each time I've donated.


Thanks for the support For the record, I agree with you... Even with all that's happened recently, I'm still not going away from BGG, and it is the best resource for board gamers...

But I think the wiki will be an interesting experiment... The wiki is not so much an answer to the bannings themselves, but about who has the power to decide such an important thing on a site... That's mainly why I made it.


Who has the power to ban has never been in question. Whether it's ok to ban and for what reasons was. I'm not sure your experiment will solve that.


I disagree. Control over one site by one person that uses that power unfairly is a problem. And also, the fact that BGG is perceived as "Aldie's house" and he can do what he wants with it is a problem. We, the users can only complain (in the unseen coplain section). For me this is a problem.

Quote:

As far as what's gone on here lately... what has really gone on?

One guy was banned unjustly (or justly depending on what side of the fence you fall on).

Another guy was punching the site owner in the face over and over (metaphorically) until he finally got fed up with it.

I think what happened with Barnes was totally unfair, but I won't discuss it again (it has been done too much already). What happened with Weeks was in a way even worse because the offense was off site. They guy even sent an email to Aldie saying it had been a joke, c'mon... And the reason he was banned for 15 days in the first place?

I know Steve was baiting Aldie and it was hilarious (giving his password to Barnes...) but Aldie should have just ignored him. But he had to bite the bait and get involved in power games... Yeah, he showed us who's got the power here... but to me the whole thing seems like a children's fight over a ball...

Quote:

Aside from that there are a few bad admins, a few good ones... nothing unusual. Community sites are a different beast when it comes to certain things.. for a good example look at what happend to Digg tonight. But it seems to me that BGG has an appropriate balance (aside from some annoying admin behavior ). The owner and his deputies police the site in whatever way they decide and those that don't like any of the rules are free to leave taking their contributions with them.


You said it. And I just created another outlet for creativity regarding board games...

BTW, I'm not a big fan of Digg, BGG began to be more similar to Digg with the thumbs up/down feature which I'm SO glad was removed...

-Jorge
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Jorge Arroyo
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ddyer wrote:
I think you've got the problem of competitive exclusion - there is
so much good stuff on BGG, it is hopeless to try to start another
general game portal.

In other words, you've got to specialize in something that
you perceive to be underserved by BGG.


You're probably right, but I'll wait and see how the site does. When there's more people invloved, then we can decide were to go with it...

-Jorge
 
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Paul Sauberer
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If your site is created specifically in reaction to another site stopping the excessive flinging of monkey poo, then I don't think you can really be surprised to find monkey poo all over the walls of your new site.

Stating that some posts are "clearly over the line" as abusive and worthy of deletion just means that you draw a different line than Aldie. You are not different in kind, so trying to sound morally superior is rather irrelevant.

What will be relevant is whether there are enough other people who draw the line where you do to frequent your wiki. If so, then it will survive and thrive, if not then it will whither away. It is not, however, a grand experiment in free community, just an attempt at gathering like-minded individuals together. There is nothing wrong with that, but also nothing particularly noble about it, either.
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paulgregory wrote:

I am tempted to register just to tidy up the atrocious spelling (note: the plural of game is games not game's)


I hate shit like this. I'm going out on a limb here and say Jorge probably doesn't have English as a first language. The language snobs went that-a-way.
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Jorge Arroyo
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Psauberer wrote:
If your site is created specifically in reaction to another site stopping the excessive flinging of monkey poo, then I don't think you can really be surprised to find monkey poo all over the walls of your new site.

Stating that some posts are "clearly over the line" as abusive and worthy of deletion just means that you draw a different line than Aldie. You are not different in kind, so trying to sound morally superior is rather irrelevant.


I think you're missing the point. Deleting spam from a wiki has nothing to do with banning users that make controversial posts. I don't have any problem with admins erasing spam from BGG. and I don't see why I shouldn't do the same

The problem is that sometimes it is not clear, and I just want to involve the community in those kinds of decisions.

For example, if someone writes a post in say Puerto Rico's BGG page saying: "You idiots, this site is shit, don't contribute to it." it would be erased without any question. I'd do the same on the wiki (and in fact have done it already). It is a clear abuse and there is enough reason for deletion and I think no one will disagree with me in this case...

Quote:

What will be relevant is whether there are enough other people who draw the line where you do to frequent your wiki. If so, then it will survive and thrive, if not then it will whither away. It is not, however, a grand experiment in free community, just an attempt at gathering like-minded individuals together. There is nothing wrong with that, but also nothing particularly noble about it, either.


I didn't say it was a "GRAND EXPERIMENT". It is an experiment because I've never tried to do something like this before. It may work, it may fail, but I think we can learn something from the experience...

If it's going to work, I know it'll have to evolve and become something more unique, but I think a wiki about board games is not a bad idea, regardless of the situation on BGG...
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Paul,

I think that rant was entirely uncalled for. As far as I can see all that Jorge has done is create a Wiki and posted a message telling people a little about it. You're either free to use/visit it or not. If you don't like it then fine, just don't make such a fuss about it. I can only hope that you were having a bad day when you posted your message.

Matt
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ddyer wrote:
I think you've got the problem of competitive exclusion - there is
so much good stuff on BGG, it is hopeless to try to start another
general game portal.


A huge giant ditto!

BGG has everything and more anyone could possibly need/want regarding our hobby.

The "wheel" does not need to be reinvented here. It rolls just fine.
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Paul Sauberer
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yankeezulu wrote:
Paul,

I think that rant was entirely uncalled for. As far as I can see all that Jorge has done is create a Wiki and posted a message telling people a little about it. You're either free to use/visit it or not. If you don't like it then fine, just don't make such a fuss about it. I can only hope that you were having a bad day when you posted your message.

Matt


I don't think that I was making that big a fuss. According to Jorge's post, he created the wiki because he has problems with the "power issues" here at BGG concerning the banning and suspension that have been recently handed out.

In this thread and on his wiki that is what keeps coming up again and again. It is the driving force behind his wiki. He doesn't come right out and admit it, but the strong implication is that his wiki will be the "anti-BGG" in terms of what he calls "more free expression" and he specifically issues invitations to Barnes and Weeks.

Then, he starts deleting posts at his wiki on the first day they are made. He won't ban anyone, but he will take down content (and content other than obvious spam.) Now, I will agree that the person who made the posts over there was as rude and obnoxious as Barnes ever was, and I wouldn't want that kind of crap on my site, but the point is that the "free expression" part of Jorge's declaration went out the window. He is not more tolerant than Aldie is, he just has a different line he draws.

If Jorge would just be a little less disingenuous and say, "I want to give a home to Barnes- and Weeks-like content because I like it and that's what will be there, if you like it come there, if you don't then your comments will get the boot" that would be better, IMO. It's the "I'm striking a blow for free expression in the gaming community" posture that is grating to me.

It seems to be yet another site driven by an anti-BGG agenda (although on a smaller scale than Weeks all out "war"). Despite Jorge's assertions here, the reason for the site is to be in opposition to BGG policy. To expedct to be able to promote such a site here on BGG without having comments on its purpose (and that purpose is not disguised by praise about other portions of BGG) is rather naive.

As I said before, the wiki will rise or fall based on whether the line Jorge has drawn agrees with the line by others. As an additional observation, though, it doesn't stand much of a stand if the constant stance of the wiki is "we're a better place to post because we don't ban people like they do at BGG." It needs to offer something positive that it possesses itself, not just a an "Aldie shouldn't have banned Barnes and Steve Weeks is hilarious" message.
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In Response to Paul,

I don't really care that much either way, but you should at least state the facts correctly. Jorge invited Barnes, Weeks AND ALDIE. So, give it a rest. Let the guy promote his Wiki, let people see it for themselves and make their own decisions.

Thanks
Will
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While the original intent of the Wiki may have been ill conceived, I believe it may be a good alternative for people who DO have a gripe (Which I do not, but will participate both here and there).

You can never have too many board game sites. To each his own. The more people talking about games, the better. The more places to find people talking about games, the better.
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Psauberer wrote:
I don't think that I was making that big a fuss.


Paul,

My post wasn't directed at you, it was directed at paulgregory. Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers,

Matt
 
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paulgregory wrote:
Wiki? For freedom of expression?

maka wrote:
The wiki is not so much an answer to the bannings themselves, but about who has the power to decide such an important thing on a site... That's mainly why I made it.


You have created your own site to demonstrate that the person who decides this important thing is actually the owner of the site. You are the owner of the site, you have seemingly decided that bannings won't happen. Instead, you are just deleting abusive content.

I am tempted to register just to tidy up the atrocious spelling (note: the plural of game is games not game's), but I am not actually interested in joining a site that is primarily an experiment in how to run a site.

BoardGameWiki.com is not primarily motivated by a desire to share information about board games. It has more references to BGG than to board games. It is entirely unfriendly to people who are not already aware of BGG.

BGW is entirely a reaction to BGG, and I think makes it even clearer why BGG is one of the greatest sites on the net. If anyone wants to know what a game database + discussion site would look like without several years' worth of input from both the owner and the community at large, BGW is a perfect example. If anyone wants to know what a board game site would be like if it was shoehorned into an existing Wiki system rather than having lots of custom features, BGW is it.

And just to really make the whole venture even more pointless, BGW inherits a terms of service from the wiki-hosting service which insults like "You're being a big baby." and "You're an idiot." apparently fall foul of!!

So the absolute answer to "who has the power to ban" is "whoever provides the service that the community is using".

Total and utter vindication of Aldie. Well done. Experiment over.


I was thinking that there are probably many of us who would like to have a stronger faith in BGG. Perhaps you could mentor us about our personal relationship with BGG, so that we could become closer to BGG. I know that if each of us could feel BGG inside us as much as you feel BGG inside of you, then we would each have a stronger faith and a stronger personal relationship with BGG.
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Now as I understand it BGG material is licensed under a version of the Creative Common license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd-nc/1.0/
by which it is permitted to reuse the material, but not to create derivatives.

As was recently discussed in this thread,
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/162174/page/2
BGG material is not licensed under any version of the Creative Commons license.
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Jorge Arroyo
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Psauberer wrote:
yankeezulu wrote:
Paul,

I think that rant was entirely uncalled for. As far as I can see all that Jorge has done is create a Wiki and posted a message telling people a little about it. You're either free to use/visit it or not. If you don't like it then fine, just don't make such a fuss about it. I can only hope that you were having a bad day when you posted your message.

Matt


I don't think that I was making that big a fuss. According to Jorge's post, he created the wiki because he has problems with the "power issues" here at BGG concerning the banning and suspension that have been recently handed out.

In this thread and on his wiki that is what keeps coming up again and again. It is the driving force behind his wiki. He doesn't come right out and admit it, but the strong implication is that his wiki will be the "anti-BGG" in terms of what he calls "more free expression" and he specifically issues invitations to Barnes and Weeks.

You choose not to answer me and ignore my comments. It seems to me you have no interest in fair discussion, but I'll keep trying...

I stated the reason for creating the new site, but it's not it's driving force. The main purpose is to provide a free forum where decisions are taken by the community.

As it has been said, I issued invitations to Aldie too... I may disagree with the way he runs his site but that doesn't mean I've got a personal problem with him.

Quote:

Then, he starts deleting posts at his wiki on the first day they are made. He won't ban anyone, but he will take down content (and content other than obvious spam.)


As I said, the content was unrelated to the games where it was posted and full of insults. I think no one would disagree it was clearly over the line.

Quote:

Now, I will agree that the person who made the posts over there was as rude and obnoxious as Barnes ever was, and I wouldn't want that kind of crap on my site, but the point is that the "free expression" part of Jorge's declaration went out the window. He is not more tolerant than Aldie is, he just has a different line he draws.


Don't compare what I deleted with what Barnes used to post. Barnes added useful content to BGG (even if some people didn't like its form). This was clearly abusive content.

Quote:

If Jorge would just be a little less disingenuous and say, "I want to give a home to Barnes- and Weeks-like content because I like it and that's what will be there, if you like it come there, if you don't then your comments will get the boot" that would be better, IMO. It's the "I'm striking a blow for free expression in the gaming community" posture that is grating to me.

If my posture is grating to you then it's your problem not mine. You do seem angry... in fact I don't see much sense in what you're saying at this point...

Quote:

It seems to be yet another site driven by an anti-BGG agenda (although on a smaller scale than Weeks all out "war"). Despite Jorge's assertions here, the reason for the site is to be in opposition to BGG policy. To expedct to be able to promote such a site here on BGG without having comments on its purpose (and that purpose is not disguised by praise about other portions of BGG) is rather naive.


I wouldn't call it anti-BGG agenda. How can it be anti-BGG when each game posted on the site has a link back to BGG?

Quote:

As I said before, the wiki will rise or fall based on whether the line Jorge has drawn agrees with the line by others.


I don't think so. I don't draw the line. The line will be drawn by the members of the site. I'll act as a moderator for clearly abusive stuff, and I'm open to other people moderating too.

Quote:
As an additional observation, though, it doesn't stand much of a stand if the constant stance of the wiki is "we're a better place to post because we don't ban people like they do at BGG." It needs to offer something positive that it possesses itself, not just a an "Aldie shouldn't have banned Barnes and Steve Weeks is hilarious" message.


Well... at least I agree with you here... Let's see if we manage to offer something of value... it's only the second day though...

-Jorge
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