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Bob Jenkins
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I understand that if you draw a Nav Card and for example have an undesirable skill test that results in someone being killed, you can choose who dies. Let's say you have a Medic as one of your crew. You can use you Medic's medic check ability to hopefully save the person who you have elected to be killed (including the medic him/herself).

That scenario makes perfect sense and the rules back it up.


What about this seanario...

You use a work action to advance an immoral crime job. You have 6 crew - Mal, Wash, Kaylee, a Merc, Book, and Simon Tam.

You have to leave Book onboard per his card, but you personally choose to leave Simon Tam on the ship because you are extra afraid of losing him (may or may not be a good risk). That leaves Mal, Wash, Kaylee, and the Merc do advance the job via a work action

My question is since Simon is not participating in advancing the job through a work action and remains on the ship, would he be unable to save a crew who must die due to an undesirable Misbehave skill test outcome?

Page 13 of the rule book under Equip Crew states:
Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while
Working the Job. In the course of Working a Job, Crew may be forced
to return to the Ship. Crew onboard the Ship may not be affected by the
results of any Misbehave Cards or Skill Tests encountered when Working a Job.

The rules are pretty clear on what to do with Nav Cards that result in someone killed but a little fuzzy about the Medic being able to do his duty when a death occurs via misbehaving.

Wouldn't a medic be onboard the ship to do his work (much like Wash)? Seems like there needs to be a clarification in the Rules and FAQ making a distinction between participating in advancing a work action and onboard vs off the ship.
 
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Roger BW
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"On the ship" in game terms means "not involved in the action" - sometimes the action is on the ship, after all.
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Dave Roy
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Not to mention, why are you leaving Simon on the ship?

It doesn't matter if he works the job or not. If it's immoral, he gets disgruntled, even if he's on the ship.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any Misbehave cards that disgruntle crew *and* proceed.

So there's no risk of him being disgruntled twice in the same action.
 
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Bob Jenkins
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Thank you Roger BW - Firedrake.

That clears it up for me.

When I chose to not have Simon Tam participate in advancing the work action he is really "not involved in the action" and would not be able to save any killed crew.
 
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Bob Jenkins
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Great point Dave Roy!

I'll have to go through my misbehave deck and see if there are any cards that disgruntle and proceed.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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eyeofsocrates wrote:


Page 13 of the rule book under Equip Crew states:
Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while
Working the Job.


Doesn't the rules section you quote answer your question?

While you are working a job, crew on the ship can't be used "in any way".

I guess I am just confused about the confusion...
 
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George Krubski
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I believe there are 3 Misbehaves that Disgruntle Crew but allow you to proceed (2 are specific to Moral Crew only).

Here's an interesting scenario: You leave Simon at the ship while Working a Niska Job. You receive a Warrant, lose the job, and therefore must Kill a Crew as Niska collects his Pound of Flesh. In this case, I believe Simon COULD try to save that person.

I forget if Tracey is an exception. Does he still die first even if he's back at the ship?

 
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Dave Roy
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gwek wrote:
I believe there are 3 Misbehaves that Disgruntle Crew but allow you to proceed (2 are specific to Moral Crew only).

Here's an interesting scenario: You leave Simon at the ship while Working a Niska Job. You receive a Warrant, lose the job, and therefore must Kill a Crew as Niska collects his Pound of Flesh. In this case, I believe Simon COULD try to save that person.

I forget if Tracey is an exception. Does he still die first even if he's back at the ship?



I can't point to a specific thread, but I seem to recall Gale Force 9 chiming in and saying that yes, Tracey would die. That even on the ship, he heroically take a bullet for his fellow crewmember.

I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Ok, I misremembered. It was the old FAQ about the Vendetta Misbehave card that GF9 addressed.

There's been a *lot* of discussion about Tracey being on the ship and dying (including you, Gwek!), but no official word.
 
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Jay Johnson
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I would say that while Niska's "Pound of Flesh" penalty occurs as a result of a Work Action, it is not part of the Work Action itself, and therefor any crew member could be chosen to be killed and any medic on your crew (or med foam) could be used to save them, even if they weren't actively working the job.

I would vote that if Tracey wasn't on the job when a crew member is killed, then he could not sacrifice himself.
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George Krubski
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Tracey doesn't sacrifice himself. The bullet finds him.
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Jay Johnson
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gwek wrote:
Tracey doesn't sacrifice himself. The bullet finds him.

oops, I confused Tracey and Meadows.

Though I imagine this rules conundrum applies to both characters.
 
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George Krubski
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Since Meadows' ability is optional, I would say that he's the easier of the two. If he's on the ship, you can't choose to use his special ability.

I think the same applies to Tracey, but who knows?
 
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Jack F
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gwek wrote:
Since Meadows' ability is optional, I would say that he's the easier of the two. If he's on the ship, you can't choose to use his special ability.

I think the same applies to Tracey, but who knows?


FWIW, on Gwek's Tracey point, my opinion is that Socates Looker has the fundamental rule already quoted...

eyeofsocrates wrote:
Page 13 of the rule book under Equip Crew states:
Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while
Working the Job.


...indicates pretty clearly that Tracey's 'ability' cannot be 'used' if he's left on the ship.
 
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Ralph Stratford
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Moshuku wrote:
gwek wrote:
Since Meadows' ability is optional, I would say that he's the easier of the two. If he's on the ship, you can't choose to use his special ability.

I think the same applies to Tracey, but who knows?


FWIW, on Gwek's Tracey point, my opinion is that Socates Looker has the fundamental rule already quoted...

eyeofsocrates wrote:
Page 13 of the rule book under Equip Crew states:
Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while
Working the Job.


...indicates pretty clearly that Tracey's 'ability' cannot be 'used' if he's left on the ship.
Except that Tracey's Card says:

"Whenever a Crew is Killed, Tracey must be Killed first."

This is not a Skill or a Key Word, nor even an ability as the only positive that comes out of it is Tracey dies instead of another Crew (it of course means a more valuable Crew member is not Killed, but someone ends up dead).

Because it is a statement of what must happen whenever a Crew is Killed, it is not a choice as abilities of other Crew are which can be chosen to apply or not.

Also the wording of Tracey's card is not restricted to specific situations (such as Misbehaving during a Job attempt, or from a Nav Card Test), so it could arguably apply at any time a Crew is Killed. no matter what the situation is.
 
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Jack F
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Dalek1 wrote:
Moshuku wrote:
gwek wrote:
Since Meadows' ability is optional, I would say that he's the easier of the two. If he's on the ship, you can't choose to use his special ability.

I think the same applies to Tracey, but who knows?


FWIW, on Gwek's Tracey point, my opinion is that Socates Looker has the fundamental rule already quoted...

eyeofsocrates wrote:
Page 13 of the rule book under Equip Crew states:
Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while
Working the Job.


...indicates pretty clearly that Tracey's 'ability' cannot be 'used' if he's left on the ship.
Except that Tracey's Card says:

"Whenever a Crew is Killed, Tracey must be Killed first."

This is not a Skill or a Key Word, nor even an ability as the only positive that comes out of it is Tracey dies instead of another Crew (it of course means a more valuable Crew member is not Killed, but someone ends up dead).

Because it is a statement of what must happen whenever a Crew is Killed, it is not a choice as abilities of other Crew are which can be chosen to apply or not.

Also the wording of Tracey's card is not restricted to specific situations (such as Misbehaving during a Job attempt, or from a Nav Card Test), so it could arguably apply at any time a Crew is Killed. no matter what the situation is.


Hmmm.. it's an interesting way of looking at it. But then I think there's an unwritten rule that requires the Tracey card to be applicable to the action. You could otherwise logically apply the Tracey rule if Tracey's not even on your Crew e.g. on another ship's Crew, in the Discard pile or even buried somewhere in the Space Bazaar deck. I'd say that "Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship may not be used in any way while Working the Job" is clearer if you think it is worded as "Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship does not apply in any way while Working the Job".

As another example (assuming Gwek's very fine Firefly Excel sheets are quoting the card text), the Alliance Sonic Rifle text is not optional ("Rivals using Fight Skill in SHOWDOWNS must follow Kosherized Rules")... but clearly does not apply if it's left on the ship!

But at the end of the day, it's all just my opinion.
 
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John Coxon
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I agree with what Jack F wrote when he said it's clearer if you think of the wording as "Any Gear or Crew onboard the Ship does not apply in any way while Working the Job." I think this approach is simple and provides better clarity.

George (gwek) brought up an interesting scenario too with regard to Niska's pound of flesh. As we know, getting paid is part of the outcome phase (step 4 of working a job). So to me it would make sense that Niska's pound of flesh is also part of the outcome phase. Thus, a crew member allocated toward working the job would be killed unless they were saved by something else used on the job. Nobody back onboard the ship could use any voluntary or involuntary abilities to save them.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Soltaris wrote:
George (gwek) brought up an interesting scenario too with regard to Niska's pound of flesh. As we know, getting paid is part of the outcome phase (step 4 of working a job). So to me it would make sense that Niska's pound of flesh is also part of the outcome phase. Thus, a crew member allocated toward working the job would be killed unless they were saved by something else used on the job. Nobody back onboard the ship could use any voluntary or involuntary abilities to save them.

Except "getting paid" applies to all crew members, even if they didn't work the job. (you still have to pay them their cut or they get disgruntled).

So using that logic, I say the Pound of Flesh could apply to any of the crew members, regardless of if they were participating in the Work Action that drew the Warrant. Niska is looking to punish the captain/crew for making him look bad or drawing Alliance attention to illegal activities that he's connected to. He's not going to care whether that person was directly involved, as long as it is someone that is part of the offending crew. Plus, he isn't instantaneously going to know when a warrant is issued on one of his jobs, and even if he did, he isn't going to be able to enforce the penalty instantaneously. So by the time the crewmember is going to be killed, likely they'll be back to the ship and the medic could respond to them even if they weren't "working the job" at the time of the warrant.
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John Coxon
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JayJ79 wrote:
Soltaris wrote:
George (gwek) brought up an interesting scenario too with regard to Niska's pound of flesh. As we know, getting paid is part of the outcome phase (step 4 of working a job). So to me it would make sense that Niska's pound of flesh is also part of the outcome phase. Thus, a crew member allocated toward working the job would be killed unless they were saved by something else used on the job. Nobody back onboard the ship could use any voluntary or involuntary abilities to save them.

Except "getting paid" applies to all crew members, even if they didn't work the job. (you still have to pay them their cut or they get disgruntled).

So using that logic, I say the Pound of Flesh could apply to any of the crew members, regardless of if they were participating in the Work Action that drew the Warrant. Niska is looking to punish the captain/crew for making him look bad or drawing Alliance attention to illegal activities that he's connected to. He's not going to care whether that person was directly involved, as long as it is someone that is part of the offending crew. Plus, he isn't instantaneously going to know when a warrant is issued on one of his jobs, and even if he did, he isn't going to be able to enforce the penalty instantaneously. So by the time the crewmember is going to be killed, likely they'll be back to the ship and the medic could respond to them even if they weren't "working the job" at the time of the warrant.


There are a few steps to Working a Job:

1. Equip Crew
2. Confirm Needs
3. Do the Job / Misbehave
4. Outcome

Getting paid is part of "step 4: Outcome," which means you are still working the job at this point. The job isn't finished until the paperwork is done

Combine that with the rule that says "When a Job is completed successfully, your Crew expects to get their Cut, whether they worked the Job or not."

Together we can see that getting paid allows crew left onboard the ship to be affected during a work action. But this is a specific rule which calls out an exception. No other special rules appear to allow crew onboard the ship to be affected by anything. The FAQ mentions "Additionally, if one of your Crew is Killed while Misbehaving and then saved by a Medic Test, they return to the ship: their Skills and Gear are unavailable for the remaining Misbehaving Cards." This seems to support the argument that a killed crew member would not have already been onboard the ship. I feel Niska's special ability would be a similar circumstance.

Keep in mind it's not clear exactly when Niska's ability should be resolved. It could be within the outcome phase of working the job, or it could be just after. I just happen to believe it makes more sense to be included as part of the job's outcome, which would then limit who could be killed.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Misbehaves are part of a specific Work Action (which is the only time when crew/equipment are specifically delegated). The Outcome step is part of the job as a whole, not the specific Work Action, and thus the crew delegation does not apply.
 
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George Krubski
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Although I think there's a sound argument about consistency in the rules, I think there's a reasonable counter-argument in that the rules are notoriously weak with respect to exceptions.

Personally, I prefer to think it could be anyone, based on thematic tone. The crew rushes back to the ship, congratulating themselves on having narrowly escaped the law despite the job going south. They return home to find three tough looking goons waiting for them. Mal tries to talk them down, but the leader says "Mister Niska wanted us to send a message." And two more goons throw Shepherd Book's lifeless corpse at Mal's feet.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Thematically, I don't get how you can always "choose" who gets killed. I'd think it would be more random chance. (some scenarios could be someone choosing/being chosen to sacrifice themselves. but more often, there wouldn't be a choice).

I suppose this could be implemented as a variant, where if a crewmember is to be killed, a die is rolled, with equal chance for each crewmember (or each crewmember working the job.
Example: 2 crew: 1-3 = char A, 4-6 = char B; 3 crew: 1-2 = A, 3-4 = B, 5-6 = C; 4 crew: 1 A, 2 B, 3 C, 4 D, 5-6 = player's choice (or reroll).
Though some other system would have to be chosen if there are more than 6 crew (possibly splitting the crew up into two groups, doing a preliminary roll where odd = the first group and even = second group, and then rolling to see which one from that group is killed).
But that just adds another level of complexity to a game that is already fairly complex.
 
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George Krubski
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I don't know, Mal clearly picked Wash. I mean, they just landed, so who needs a Pilot?
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John Coxon
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An easier way if you want randomness is to shuffle your crew face down and have the player on your right pick one.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Soltaris wrote:
An easier way if you want randomness is to shuffle your crew face down and have the player on your right pick one.

although they will have different backs, having come from different supply planets (or at the very least, your Leader will have a different back)
 
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Bart Rachemoss
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IMO if a crew member can get paid after/when a job is completed successfully even if they were left behind on the ship then they should also be eligible to get sacrificed to Niska if the job goes south. Therefore I think a left-behind medic should be able to try to save the crew member who is about to be sacrificed.

OTOH, until we get an official ruling, I think any reasonable interpretation of the timing is valid. Thematically it might be best to add a rule that says medics can't be used on the crew member sacrificed to Niska because if a medic would get access at all to the crew member it would be too late to do anything. Thematically, the only way to save them would be with an epic gun battle.
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