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Subject: Reality of Fighting in AFVs - A Quote from a Western Desert Tanker rss

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Christopher O
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For all those who think you don't have enough control in some wargames:



Mmmmmm... cheese sandwich.


I didn't discover this. It was posted today on Reddit, here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/53s2gt/realities_of_w...

A little insight from the comment section:

Quote:
One funny bit about this that you probably won't catch is the "Driver advance over the A set" part.

Tanks have intercoms for talking to the crew, and the commander has access to one or more radios. You have a "Press to Talk" (PTT) switch on your headset cable that goes in 2 directions - one way for intercom, the other way for radio. Another switch, usually on the wall of the turret, determines which radio the "RAD" switch transmits on ("A Set" - usually squadron frequency, or "B Set" - usually Regiment or sometimes Brigade)

So if he is telling the driver to advance over the A set, it means he pushed the PTT the wrong way and sent the command to his driver to the entire squadron. And because the driver can't hear the radio, he's doing whatever he wants (like most dirt squirrels).

Every crew commander has done this at least once, and we all have funny stories about remarks meant for the crew going out over the air.....

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Pete Belli
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Nice stuff.

"Cheese Sandwich" will be a random event card in my next Memoir '44 scenario.
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jumbit
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Kozure wrote:
For all those who think you don't have enough control in some wargames:


A lot of wargamers don't give a fig if the game is realistic or not. soblue They play wargames primarily for the feeling of control they get over their cardboard men. Realistic command and control isn't an objective. cry

The last time I tried to defend realism, I got a reply that was basically "Look, kid, I spend most of my waking hours at work or with family when I hardly control anything, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend my precious free time on anything where I'm not in control."
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M@tthijs
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jumbit wrote:
[..]The last time I tried to defend realism, I got a reply that was basically "Look, kid, I spend most of my waking hours at work or with family when I hardly control anything, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend my precious free time on anything where I'm not in control."
What am I doing? He's right! I never thought of it that way!
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Andrew J
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It's a good job those Grant tanks had plenty of crew room to accommodate a sandwich loader.
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Gregory Scott
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myrmex wrote:
It's a good job those Grant tanks had plenty of crew room to accommodate a sandwich loader.


Many early WW2 tanks didn't have a dedicated loader position, and thus their Rate of Sandwich was severely limited.
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Christopher O
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jumbit wrote:
Kozure wrote:
For all those who think you don't have enough control in some wargames:


A lot of wargamers don't give a fig if the game is realistic or not. soblue They play wargames primarily for the feeling of control they get over their cardboard men. Realistic command and control isn't an objective. cry

The last time I tried to defend realism, I got a reply that was basically "Look, kid, I spend most of my waking hours at work or with family when I hardly control anything, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend my precious free time on anything where I'm not in control."


You know, just recently, maybe in the last two weeks, someone pointed that out in another forum - that for some wargamers, the sense of order and control that they get from having complete C3i over a situation helps them feel better about themselves/their day. It never occurred to me to think that way but it makes sense.
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Jason Sadler
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Not as colorful a story, but another humorous armor quote:



Probably due to the lack of a sandwich loader.
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Jeff Saxton
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The real reasons behind the failure of the Panzer Corps was their inability to address the glaringly obvious sandwich gap.
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Bob Zurunkel
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Mack_me_Bucko wrote:
The real reasons behind the failure of the Panzer Corps was their inability to address the glaringly obvious sandwich gap.


They could not cope with the Allies ability to mass produce vegemite sandwiches.
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James Brown
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Inquiring minds need to know if that cheese sandwich was Stilton or Cheddar? I think the load rate is higher for Cheddar.
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jumbit
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Kozure wrote:
You know, just recently, maybe in the last two weeks, someone pointed that out in another forum - that for some wargamers, the sense of order and control that they get from having complete C3i over a situation helps them feel better about themselves/their day. It never occurred to me to think that way but it makes sense.


But...that has nothing to do with wargames. In war, 75% of what happens is out of the control of the commander.

"War is the province of uncertainty: three-fourths of those things upon which action in war must be calculated, are hidden more or less in the clouds of great uncertainty."
-- C. VON CLAUSEWITZ, On War


This 100% control over everything has certainly nothing to do with wargames, or to use their proper name: conflict simulations. It is the job of the wargame designer to come up with realistic command and control systems. Without C&C systems...it's not a wargame.

I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.
 
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Jason Sadler
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In ASL, you will note on the reverse of vehicles there is a CS# (the vehicle in lower left of the picture below has a Cheese Sandwich rating of 2, which probably explains its demise). ASL is the only game to take the Cheese Sandwich into account.

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Christopher O
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jumbit wrote:
Kozure wrote:
You know, just recently, maybe in the last two weeks, someone pointed that out in another forum - that for some wargamers, the sense of order and control that they get from having complete C3i over a situation helps them feel better about themselves/their day. It never occurred to me to think that way but it makes sense.


But...that has nothing to do with wargames. In war, 75% of what happens is out of the control of the commander.

"War is the province of uncertainty: three-fourths of those things upon which action in war must be calculated, are hidden more or less in the clouds of great uncertainty."
-- C. VON CLAUSEWITZ, On War


This 100% control over everything has certainly nothing to do with wargames, or to use their proper name: conflict simulations. It is the job of the wargame designer to come up with realistic command and control systems. Without C&C systems...it's not a wargame.

I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.


100% agree... but having this insight has helped me to understand why some wargamers are so adverse to lack of control over their little cardboard minions.
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Jason Sadler
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It's like the difference between enjoying a movie or enjoying the process of getting all of your friends, acquaintances, and family members to the theater to watch it.

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Seth Owen
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jumbit wrote:
Kozure wrote:
You know, just recently, maybe in the last two weeks, someone pointed that out in another forum - that for some wargamers, the sense of order and control that they get from having complete C3i over a situation helps them feel better about themselves/their day. It never occurred to me to think that way but it makes sense.


But...that has nothing to do with wargames. In war, 75% of what happens is out of the control of the commander.

"War is the province of uncertainty: three-fourths of those things upon which action in war must be calculated, are hidden more or less in the clouds of great uncertainty."
-- C. VON CLAUSEWITZ, On War


This 100% control over everything has certainly nothing to do with wargames, or to use their proper name: conflict simulations. It is the job of the wargame designer to come up with realistic command and control systems. Without C&C systems...it's not a wargame.

I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.


I'm with you. If this is an important factor for a player -- and there's nothing wrong with it being so -- they are really playing the wrong genre of game. There are some really terrific euro games that scratch that itch for me, but I want my wargames to resemble war at least superficially and sone degree of chaos and lack of control seems fundamental to that.
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Eurojuegos Buenos Aires
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Besides running, sweeping, saluting it if it moves and painting it if it doesn't, handing out cheese sandwiches was pretty much the most important thing you had to do when conscript service was mandatory on my country. How foolish of me, I never appreciate the value in real combat that skill could provide.
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wargamer55 wrote:
jumbit wrote:
I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.


I'm with you. If this is an important factor for a player -- and there's nothing wrong with it being so -- they are really playing the wrong genre of game. There are some really terrific euro games that scratch that itch for me, but I want my wargames to resemble war at least superficially and sone degree of chaos and lack of control seems fundamental to that.


We certainly have evidence of grognards who are vehemently anti-eurogame...even while they want these levels of control and tournament competition in their wargames. It doesn't make logical sense to me, either, but I guess it has a chronological origin--way back when wargames WERE the example of games of complex strategy (or at least complex rules).

I've just been playing some wargames where even movement has a random factor, not just combat resolution. Why not? Makes sense to me (when done right).
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MarkEJohnson wrote:
I've just been playing some wargames where even movement has a random factor, not just combat resolution. Why not? Makes sense to me (when done right).


Balkoski's Great Campaigns series does this (die rolling for movement points), and at the Corps level it does feel right.
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Dan Depends
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I spend a lot of time playing WITPAE and you can spot those players a mile off. They're the ones complaining that their aircraft, taskforces or troops don't do what they wanted them to do. This game is bugged and/or biased towards one side or the other.
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jumbit wrote:



This 100% control over everything has certainly nothing to do with wargames, or to use their proper name: conflict simulations. It is the job of the wargame designer to come up with realistic command and control systems. Without C&C systems...it's not a wargame.

I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.


and yet, interestingly enough, Combat Commander,which flies totally against the face of precise command and Control - but is probably the most "eurogame" wargame out there. It does not, however, include cheese sandwiches. Though they could easily be added as a scenario special rule.
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Combat Commander wrote:
jumbit wrote:



This 100% control over everything has certainly nothing to do with wargames, or to use their proper name: conflict simulations. It is the job of the wargame designer to come up with realistic command and control systems. Without C&C systems...it's not a wargame.

I get the idea this "control gamer" type would be much happier in the Eurogame crowd.


and yet, interestingly enough, Combat Commander,which flies totally against the face of precise command and Control - but is probably the most "eurogame" wargame out there. It does not, however, include cheese sandwiches. Though they could easily be added as a scenario special rule.

just as tanks can be added?

 
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they were added as a special rule in Scenario 11: Hold the Line, and also appear (off board) in other scenarios by special rule like 18: Bridge Hunt. And an entire Battle Pack featured AFV rules featured in the blitzkrieg end of the war.

Still no sign of cheese butties though
 
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