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Subject: Our attempt to create the duel type tension and mechanics in 2 player 7 wonders rss

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Mihir Shah
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We own both the 7 Wonders Duel & 7 Wonders and have played them both multiple times as 2 player games. We love them both but we love the Duel much better as a 2 player game then the original 7 Wonders 2 player version. This is our attempt(successful one for us) in creating the Duel type nail-biting tension and the "take that" feeling in the original 7 Wonders for 2 players(no dummy player needed) & a lot has been copied from the 7 Wonders Duel to make this possible for us. Enough said, here is our attempt:-

-Sit next to each other with the card layout in between both the players.
-Use the Duel game resource buying rule where any resource can be brought from the bank & money is paid to bank at 2 coins per resource and additional 1 coin for each type of that resource symbol indicated by the brown & grey cards of your opponent; the either/or brown resource cards do not count for the additional 1 coin cost.
-Use all the 3 player cards.
-Use the Duel game layout for each Age.
-All discarded cards go face down in a single pile below the respective Age structure for each Age
-Age 1 & 2 remove 1 brown resource card randomly, for Age 3 any random card is removed after adding the guild cards.
-Wonder board default resource don't count as a resource built but is needed as an additional resource to create all the 3 stages of your wonder.
-Military conflict loser looses 2 coins in Age 1, 3 coins in Age 2 & 4 coins in Age 3 and if no coins left then it equates to negative victory points per missing coin. Victory points token and negative victory points token are still given as per the original 7 Wonder game rules.
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the left of the card layout and hence if you are seated to the right then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-West Trading Post is exactly opposite of the East Trading Post described above. That is, it lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the left has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the right of the card layout and hence if you are seated to the left then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-Marketplace lets you buy the indicated resources for 1 less coin from the bank if your opponent has built the particular resource via their grey cards.
-For the yellow Vineyard card with 3 arrows, when you pick that from the Age 2 structure to draft it in your city, you first place it just above the discard pile(which is in the center between both players) and take 1 coin for each brown cards in your opponents city, your city & in the discard pile.
-For all left & right arrow guild cards that is in your city, to apply its action/reward at the points scoring stage, place it between both players & do the action/reward(which in essence means that you get victory points for each of those cards/token present in your and your opponents city). *The Builders Guild card with 3 arrows has the same effect as the 2 arrow cards as there are no wonders pointing down when that card is placed between both players.
-After completion of the 3rd stage of your Wonder you get another turn immediately.
-First person to get 2 sets(where 1 set= 3 different symbols) of science symbols wins by sudden death by scientific supremacy.
-At any time in the game the difference in the no. of military shields becomes 8 or more, the person with the higher military shield count wins by military supremacy. Any Wonder board military shields do not count towards this sudden death.
-At the start of Age 1 choose a random player to go first and for Age 1 & 2 the person with the lowest Military Shields of the previous Age gets to choose the starting player.
**All other rules remain same as in the original 7 Wonders game.

***In all our games with this variant, the points difference was never more than 7-8 and that was pretty nail biting always.

For us, this gets it as close as we could to replicate 7 Wonders Duel in the original 7 Wonders game without disturbing much the cards balance, we also realized that the Age deck cards for the original 7 Wonders were never designed for a 2 player only game and hence its 2 player variant includes a dummy player. We just wished that the original 7 Wonders needed more resources to build the stages of your wonder as in the Duel.

Hope you all like this. Cheers.
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Indenture Forlife
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This sounds great. How many times have you played this variant? How much money does each player start with?
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Mihir Shah
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Indenture wrote:
This sounds great. How many times have you played this variant? How much money does each player start with?


We have played this around 15 times.
As mentioned in my post all other rules remain the same, that means both players start with 3 coins each.
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
We own both the 7 Wonders Duel & 7 Wonders and have played them both multiple times as 2 player games. We love them both but we love the Duel much better as a 2 player game then the original 7 Wonders 2 player version. ...


Yeah, that's looking very good. You took my bud of an idea (7Wonders Duellum, a 2 player variant?) and made it a bush of roses. Kudos!

I hope someone with more artistic talent as I have, can put this into a nice single page file to put it in the 7W box.

Once again, chapeau.
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
We own both the 7 Wonders Duel & 7 Wonders and have played them both multiple times as 2 player games. We love them both but we love the Duel much better as a 2 player game then the original 7 Wonders 2 player version. ...


Yeah, that's looking very good. You took my bud of an idea (7Wonders Duellum, a 2 player variant?) and made it a bush of roses. Kudos!

I hope someone with more artistic talent as I have, can put this into a nice single page file to put it in the 7W box.

Once again, chapeau.


I did read that thread but we were already midway through play testing this. I remember telling myself, its good to have someone with the same mindset, .

Glad you liked this variant.
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Mihir Shah
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Updated my original post with some guild cards clarifications and our score differential side note.
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards & vice versa for West Trading Post....


surprise
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards & vice versa for West Trading Post....


surprise



I do not understand what you are trying to say through that emoticon
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards & vice versa for West Trading Post....


surprise



I do not understand what you are trying to say through that emoticon


Astonishment?
As there is no right neighbor, not even a wrong one.
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards & vice versa for West Trading Post....


surprise



I do not understand what you are trying to say through that emoticon


Astonishment?
As there is no right neighbor, not even a wrong one.



Aha, i see, it needs some more clarifications, updated my post to reflect those clarification regarding the trading post cards. I should have been more precise, nonetheless, its updated now.

 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:


Aha, i see, it needs some more clarifications, updated my post to reflect those clarification regarding the trading post cards. I should have been more precise, nonetheless, its updated now.



Now I am even more confused....

If you are playing with only two players, your right neighbour is your left neighbour. Or not?
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:


Aha, i see, it needs some more clarifications, updated my post to reflect those clarification regarding the trading post cards. I should have been more precise, nonetheless, its updated now.



Now I am even more confused....

If you are playing with only two players, your right neighbour is your left neighbour. Or not?


How is that possible?
The pyramid is in the center of both of you, if you are sitting on the left of the pyramid then your opponent is on the right of the pyramid, how can he be on your left too?

Eg. You are sitting on the left of the pyramid and you have the East Trading Post(arrow on that card pointing to the right) then if your opponent who is to the right of the pyramid has any of those resources built(resources mentioned on the East Trading Post) then you pay 1 coin less to the bank to buy any of those resources. In the same seating situation if you have the West Trading Post(arrow on that card pointing to the left) then that card is useless to you as no one is to your left.

This is the simplest i can get in explaining that.
 
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Nathan Faulkner
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I am a little confused too. Let's see if we can simplify this. If the blue player is Player 1. Would the red player be on his right or left? Or are you saying that the pyramid blocks adjoining players and acts as a barricade?


 
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Mihir Shah
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fret_gurglo wrote:
I am a little confused too. Let's see if we can simplify this. If the blue player is Player 1. Would the red player be on his right or left? Or are you saying that the pyramid blocks adjoining players and acts as a barricade?





The seating shown in the image is wrong, original duel was never designed to have players sit across each other, but you have to sit next to each other and that is how the pyramid is visible clearly by both players. Thus, when you sit next to each other your confusion is automatically solved.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
fret_gurglo wrote:
I am a little confused too. Let's see if we can simplify this. If the blue player is Player 1. Would the red player be on his right or left? Or are you saying that the pyramid blocks adjoining players and acts as a barricade?





The seating shown in the image is wrong, original duel was never designed to have players sit across each other, but you have to sit next to each other and that is how the pyramid is visible clearly by both players. Thus, when you sit next to each other your confusion is automatically solved.

Would you care to use another term for the card layout, as
- there is already a pyramid, see wonder
- it is not in form of a pyramid, not even a triangle, see age 3

Thank you for your cooperation.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
...
-Sit next to each other with the pyramid in between both the players.
...


Why?
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the left and hence if you are seated to the right then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-West Trading Post is exactly opposite of the East Trading Post described above. That is, it lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the left has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the right and hence if you are seated to the left then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
...

Simpler:
-East/West Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your opponent has constructed them via their brown cards.
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
fret_gurglo wrote:
I am a little confused too. Let's see if we can simplify this. If the blue player is Player 1. Would the red player be on his right or left? Or are you saying that the pyramid blocks adjoining players and acts as a barricade?





The seating shown in the image is wrong, original duel was never designed to have players sit across each other, but you have to sit next to each other and that is how the pyramid is visible clearly by both players. Thus, when you sit next to each other your confusion is automatically solved.

Would you care to use another term for the card layout, as
- there is already a pyramid, see wonder
- it is not in form of a pyramid, not even a triangle, see age 3

Thank you for your cooperation.


Ok then, call it card layouts of each Age, till you understand the concept of what is required for this variant to work, i am happy with whatever term you prefer to use, i just wanted to get my point across and solve your confusion
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-Sit next to each other with the pyramid in between both the players.
...


Why?


That's how my variant and the original 7 Wonders Duel is designed to work
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the left and hence if you are seated to the right then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-West Trading Post is exactly opposite of the East Trading Post described above. That is, it lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the left has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the right and hence if you are seated to the left then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
...

Simpler:
-East/West Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your opponent has constructed them via their brown cards.


No, that is wrong and that is not how my variant is works with those cards as 1 Trading post card is always going to be useless to you, if you are sitting on the left of the card layout and your opponent to your right then the west trading post is useless to you as the arrow on that card faces left of you, where there is no one sitting, hence west trading post would not let you buy the resources for 1 less from the bank if you sitting on the left of the Card Layout for the respective Age.

Hence, your framing of the sentence does not work for my variant. Anyways, till you get the point, i am happy with whatever words/sentence you want to use.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-Sit next to each other with the pyramid in between both the players.
...


Why?


That's how my variant and the original 7 Wonders Duel is designed to work


True, but Duel works also sitting opposed to each other while yours not! If you want to exclude those who can or will not sit next to each other, fine.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the left and hence if you are seated to the right then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-West Trading Post is exactly opposite of the East Trading Post described above. That is, it lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the left has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the right and hence if you are seated to the left then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
...

Simpler:
-East/West Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your opponent has constructed them via their brown cards.


No, that is wrong and that is not how my variant is works with those cards as 1 Trading post card is always going to be useless to you, if you are sitting on the left of the card layout and your opponent to your right then the west trading post is useless to you as the arrow on that card faces left of you, where there is no one sitting, hence west trading post would not let you buy the resources for 1 less from the bank if you sitting on the left of the Card Layout for the respective Age.

Hence, your framing of the sentence does not work for my variant. Anyways, till you get the point, i am happy with whatever words/sentence you want to use.

Not simpler wording, but a simpler rule. Duel does not know this cave at. Just remove one of the trading post, if you think two are to much.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
fret_gurglo wrote:
I am a little confused too. Let's see if we can simplify this. If the blue player is Player 1. Would the red player be on his right or left? Or are you saying that the pyramid blocks adjoining players and acts as a barricade?





The seating shown in the image is wrong, original duel was never designed to have players sit across each other, but you have to sit next to each other and that is how the pyramid is visible clearly by both players. Thus, when you sit next to each other your confusion is automatically solved.

Would you care to use another term for the card layout, as
- there is already a pyramid, see wonder
- it is not in form of a pyramid, not even a triangle, see age 3

Thank you for your cooperation.


Ok then, call it card layouts of each Age, till you understand the concept of what is required for this variant to work, i am happy with whatever term you prefer to use, i just wanted to get my point across and solve your confusion

Appreciate that.
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-Sit next to each other with the pyramid in between both the players.
...


Why?


That's how my variant and the original 7 Wonders Duel is designed to work


True, but Duel works also sitting opposed to each other while yours not! If you want to exclude those who can or will not sit next to each other, fine.


I agree, there is nothing in the rules for the original duel regarding where to sit but some things are understood, duel is a 2 player game and hence why would you not want to sit next to each other and face the card layout straight on, if you sit facing each other then none of you can see the cards face on.

If you find sitting across convenient than the more logical way to sit for that game then yes, my variant is not for you as it would not work.

Having said that, its your game you can change/modify whatever u like to suit your liking's.
 
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Mihir Shah
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Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
Wolfram wrote:
jalwaaa wrote:
...
-East Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the right has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the left and hence if you are seated to the right then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
-West Trading Post is exactly opposite of the East Trading Post described above. That is, it lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your neighbor to the left has constructed them via their brown cards, this is assuming that you are seated to the right and hence if you are seated to the left then this card is useless to you and can be discarded for coins or used to build a wonder.
...

Simpler:
-East/West Trading Post lets you buy the indicated resources from bank for 1 less coin if your opponent has constructed them via their brown cards.


No, that is wrong and that is not how my variant is works with those cards as 1 Trading post card is always going to be useless to you, if you are sitting on the left of the card layout and your opponent to your right then the west trading post is useless to you as the arrow on that card faces left of you, where there is no one sitting, hence west trading post would not let you buy the resources for 1 less from the bank if you sitting on the left of the Card Layout for the respective Age.

Hence, your framing of the sentence does not work for my variant. Anyways, till you get the point, i am happy with whatever words/sentence you want to use.

Not simpler wording, but a simpler rule. Duel does not know this cave at. Just remove one of the trading post, if you think two are to much.


I do not think those 2 cards are too much, its you who finds it difficult to grasp what i am saying. I do not like to remove cards and disturb the card balance. Once again, it is your game and you can choose to play however suits you fine.
 
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