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Subject: Retreating all the way across the board in one turn rss

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Garth Brooks
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So,

I'm the Rebel player with a hidden base on Alderaan. I've got a Mon Calamari Cruiser there, along with a speeder and 2 troopers. And I've got Heart of the Empire in my hand, and a smile in my heart.

My opponent just split his forces with the Death Star + whole army at Corellia and an assault carrier + 2 Ties + troops at Ord Mandell, leaving Coruscant lightly defended with an AT-ST and a Trooper. I've been harassing the subjugated Corellia with Sabotage missions, so they're not going to bother me this turn.

I confidently lash out at Coruscant from the Rebel base.. And fail to take out all of the imperial troops. Leaving a very awkward Calamari Cruiser in orbit over Coruscant and a very obvious and naked Rebel Base on Alderaan, that fortunately moves to Ryloth at the end of the turn due to a pre-planned Rapid Deployment.

The next turn, my opponent moves his forces in from Ord Mandell to chase my lone Mon Calamari cruiser away from Coruscant. I add a leader, and can win this, but I decide to retreat to Alderaan anyway. (edit: after a round of combat, in which my Cruiser takes 1 hit, kills a Tie Fighter, and magically heals upon leaving.)

Next, my opponent moves the Death Star + Ties in from Corellia! I can't repel firepower of that magnitude, so I retreat again, this time to loyal Kashyyyk. (edit: Again, after eating a pile of 3 hits from the Death Star, which is still not quite enough to kill me, which again magically heal upon me skipping away.)

And the whole time as I'm watching my cruiser run across the board escaping certain death, I get this dirty feeling like I'm moving the same ship two spaces in a turn and that is not something that I'm supposed to be doing.

But what stops me?

edit: I think there's an argument that can be made for damage not to heal until the Refresh Phase, because We Have the Technology to remember damage from previous turns in the form of damage tokens.

But I'm guessing that why damage heals at the end of combat is related to keeping the combat clean and contained to a single theatre, in addition to removing unneeded complexity from the Refresh Phase.

Am I on point?




 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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When it's caused by the Imperial Player activating systems, it's not your fault. Don't forget that you need to resolve a round of combat before you retreat, so your ships will be being whittled down along the way too, it's not fully free. Also, you generally can't choose your path, as the retreat rules will constrain it for much of the way.
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Pol Michiels
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Also, can't you only retreat if there is a leader present? Would cost a lot of leaders to retreat far...
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Boscrossos wrote:
Also, can't you only retreat if there is a leader present? Would cost a lot of leaders to retreat far...

The leader moves with the units in a retreat.
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Boscrossos wrote:
Also, can't you only retreat if there is a leader present? Would cost a lot of leaders to retreat far...


Technically only 1 leader, since he retreats with the units, he will be there for when the Empire attacks him again.


The farthest I have moves in 1 turn is from Corellia to Ilum.
I first attacked Curoscant, and retreated to Ord Mantell, when attacked there I got my forces to Ilum (which was my base). Worked like I intended, even faster.
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Doug Bey
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For the capital ships, don't think of the damage as actual damage to your hull and systems.... perhaps view it more as weakening of your shields.

Once you're down to one life left, your shields are now completely stripped.

And once your retreat, this gives your ship time to regenerate its shields back to full power.

See? No magical healing. Just shield regeneration.
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Brian Leet
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Perfectly legal. I once had Leia flee three consecutive systems when bad Imperial luck meant that the lone transport she was left leading after the first combat retreat was not destroyed during the first round of either subsequent attack.
 
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Jason Sherlock
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The time scale is pretty abstract in this game. It could be days or weeks between activations. Maybe the paint job on the cruiser isn't looking so hot, but the vital systems are back on line between combats.
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Garth Brooks
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Snotwalker wrote:
For the capital ships, don't think of the damage as actual damage to your hull and systems.... perhaps view it more as weakening of your shields.

Once you're down to one life left, your shields are now completely stripped.

And once your retreat, this gives your ship time to regenerate its shields back to full power.

See? No magical healing. Just shield regeneration.


Those would have to be some some amazingly powerful shields and correspondingly criminally weak armor if a Mon Calamari Cruiser's shields could withstand 3 barrages that would otherwise utterly destroy it the moment those shields failed, amirite?

Like, I was always under the impression that starship shields kind of took a rather weak and invisible role in the Star Wars Universe.

At best, they could equal the strength of the hull like capital ships did in the X-Wing and Tie Fighter series of games, and that was a stretch. Most of the time shields were "Okay the rear shields on your X-wing fail after 3 direct hits IT CAME FROM... BEHIND." And for some reason, it was always the ground shields that were insanely powerful, taking something like "3 months of sustained bombardment to break through" or something equally crazy.

And then there were some shields you can just physically walk through and others like the Endor Death Star Shield you can smash your whole fleet into while Luke Skywalker looks on. What's up with that?

But anyway, I digress.


I mean I get why the ruling is the way it is, but I just felt sorry for my Imperial opponent.

Because, let's be honest: That cruiser, which had no business being anywhere close to Coruscant by itself, let alone being pursued by the Death Star Itself and its starfighters, thematically, should have eaten s***.

Let me get a witness.
 
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Saro Gumusyan

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Well, Mon Calamari Cruisers had one of the highest damage control ratings in the PC version. Plus without gravity well ships (like Interdictors) Rebel fleets could typically retreat unscathed from battle, unless a Death Star was present for one free shot. At least the Empire gets to take its best shot on hit and runs.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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Shields in the Star Wars universe harness the same force that is responsible for Plot Armor, and are subject to the same vagaries.
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Garth Brooks
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demoss1 wrote:
Shields in the Star Wars universe harness the same force that is responsible for Plot Armor, and are subject to the same vagaries.


Plot armor.. Is that like, the same equipment that Leia, Padme, C-3PO and R2-D2 all have that lets them literally walk into whole armies and emerge unscathed, while also granting the former two unerring marksmanship and weapon power, even while distracted?
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Ming_Tso wrote:
demoss1 wrote:
Shields in the Star Wars universe harness the same force that is responsible for Plot Armor, and are subject to the same vagaries.


Plot armor.. Is that like, the same equipment that Leia, Padme, C-3PO and R2-D2 all have that lets them literally walk into whole armies and emerge unscathed, while also granting the former two unerring marksmanship and weapon power, even while distracted?


We don't even want to get into the comic relief force armour of Jar Jar.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Ming_Tso wrote:
demoss1 wrote:
Shields in the Star Wars universe harness the same force that is responsible for Plot Armor, and are subject to the same vagaries.


Plot armor.. Is that like, the same equipment that Leia, Padme, C-3PO and R2-D2 all have that lets them literally walk into whole armies and emerge unscathed, while also granting the former two unerring marksmanship and weapon power, even while distracted?

I think that's more due to the principle of Conservation of Ninjutsu.

When Leia actually got shot, the bulk of the Stormtroopers were out doing other things so the group that shot at her actually had a chance!
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David Umstattd
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Ming_Tso wrote:
demoss1 wrote:
Shields in the Star Wars universe harness the same force that is responsible for Plot Armor, and are subject to the same vagaries.


Plot armor.. Is that like, the same equipment that Leia, Padme, C-3PO and R2-D2 all have that lets them literally walk into whole armies and emerge unscathed, while also granting the former two unerring marksmanship and weapon power, even while distracted?


That happened on the Death Star when the empire was trying to let them go as is stated several times in the movie. Obviously the storm troopers were under orders not to shoot the rebels so they could escape with the tracking device.
 
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Brad Restivo
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PghArch wrote:
Perfectly legal. I once had Leia flee three consecutive systems when bad Imperial luck meant that the lone transport she was left leading after the first combat retreat was not destroyed during the first round of either subsequent attack.


I'm under the impression that at the end of a space combat round, if there are Imperial ships present and the only Rebel ship remaining is a transport, the transport is destroyed.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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geniuslegume wrote:
I'm under the impression that at the end of a space combat round, if there are Imperial ships present and the only Rebel ship remaining is a transport, the transport is destroyed.

You are correct, but the transports are given an option to retreat first before this happens. If they don't retreat, they die.
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Sam Carroll
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Remember in Empire?

[After being shot at for a while and taking several hits to the rear] "We just lost the rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quarter and we're done for!"

It took several hits to kill the shield, then one more would destroy them. Admittedly, this is an upgraded freighter, not a battlecruiser, but even so . . .

My understanding is that in the SW universe, shields are much more powerful than armor. They are usually set very close to the hull, so you don't often see them the way you saw the deflector shield around the Second Death Star, but they are what absorbs turbolaser blasts, not the hull.
 
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Doug Bey
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spartax wrote:
Remember in Empire?

[After being shot at for a while and taking several hits to the rear] "We just lost the rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quarter and we're done for!"

It took several hits to kill the shield, then one more would destroy them. Admittedly, this is an upgraded freighter, not a battlecruiser, but even so . . .

My understanding is that in the SW universe, shields are much more powerful than armor. They are usually set very close to the hull, so you don't often see them the way you saw the deflector shield around the Second Death Star, but they are what absorbs turbolaser blasts, not the hull.


This.
 
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Jon Murdock
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spartax wrote:
Remember in Empire?

[After being shot at for a while and taking several hits to the rear] "We just lost the rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quarter and we're done for!"

It took several hits to kill the shield, then one more would destroy them. Admittedly, this is an upgraded freighter, not a battlecruiser, but even so . . .

My understanding is that in the SW universe, shields are much more powerful than armor. They are usually set very close to the hull, so you don't often see them the way you saw the deflector shield around the Second Death Star, but they are what absorbs turbolaser blasts, not the hull.


NERD ALERT

The way deflector shields work in Star Wars alters based on medium. In arcade style games and flight sims it tends to be just some more hits before they blow. In the old flight sims shields were usually about twice as strong as the hull of the ship. For example a Corellian Corvette took 4 proton torpedoes to down the shields and 2 more to blow it up.

In the earliest RPGs it was added to the defense values of any arc shields were used on and if the hull and shields were overcome by the hit things started breaking including damaging the shield generator and thus weakening the shields. The Mon Calamari actually had backup shield generators so if some of the shielding went down they could bring backups online and restore full shields. Later RPGs switched to shields as more damage but unless the hits broke the shield limit the attack did no damage.

The movies tend to back up the second interpretation. In the escape from Naboo and Han fleeing the Star Destroyer the shield generators were out and they expected imminent destruction. In the attack on the first Death Star they mention shifting all deflector shields to "double front" as they attacked and then stabilized rear deflectors (presumably putting shields in both areas) when the Imperials deployed fighters that could shoot them in the back.

Further evidence that you need a certain level of firepower to break shields comes from the Battle of Naboo where they are worried that the fighters will not have enough firepower to get through the Droid Control ship's shields. If enough shots brought it down the best thing would be to just shoot a lot until they go down. Why not have the huge fleet at Hoth just bring the Rebel Base shield down with concentrated bombardment rather then using a ground assault? Same thing with the Second Death Star. Why not just keep shooting the entrance to the Death Star shaft until the shields went down in that area and then send in the fighters? On a related note why not detach a few fighters and have them fly down and bomb the shield generator on Endor to get the shield down (and how did that tiny bunker power a shield that covers a moon sized object)? That shields are not impervious until they go down is also illustrated by all the explosions you see when the Falcon gets shot that clearly are causing damage to the ship as sparks shoot everywhere and fires start.

So usually it works that way but I doubt the scriptwriters for future movies will try to make consistency on this important and if contradictions pop up there will always be someone there to adapt the theory to fit that situation. We are resourceful that way.
 
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David Umstattd
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XenoMaster wrote:
spartax wrote:
Remember in Empire?

[After being shot at for a while and taking several hits to the rear] "We just lost the rear deflector shield! One more direct hit on the back quarter and we're done for!"

It took several hits to kill the shield, then one more would destroy them. Admittedly, this is an upgraded freighter, not a battlecruiser, but even so . . .

My understanding is that in the SW universe, shields are much more powerful than armor. They are usually set very close to the hull, so you don't often see them the way you saw the deflector shield around the Second Death Star, but they are what absorbs turbolaser blasts, not the hull.



Further evidence that you need a certain level of firepower to break shields comes from the Battle of Naboo where they are worried that the fighters will not have enough firepower to get through the Droid Control ship's shields. If enough shots brought it down the best thing would be to just shoot a lot until they go down. Why not have the huge fleet at Hoth just bring the Rebel Base shield down with concentrated bombardment rather then using a ground assault? Same thing with the Second Death Star. Why not just keep shooting the entrance to the Death Star shaft until the shields went down in that area and then send in the fighters? On a related note why not detach a few fighters and have them fly down and bomb the shield generator on Endor to get the shield down (and how did that tiny bunker power a shield that covers a moon sized object)? That shields are not impervious until they go down is also illustrated by all the explosions you see when the Falcon gets shot that clearly are causing damage to the ship as sparks shoot everywhere and fires start.

So usually it works that way but I doubt the scriptwriters for future movies will try to make consistency on this important and if contradictions pop up there will always be someone there to adapt the theory to fit that situation. We are resourceful that way.


The movies certainly tend to show that large planet based generators are able to generate incredibly powerful shields that are quite different than those of fighters and capital ships. The only times we ever see planet based shield generators failing is by direct damage to their systems. As if that is really the only realistic way of stopping them. ship based shield generators probably operate totally differently.

As to why they didn't send down bombers to take out the generator it was probably due to the presence of a massive base there. No doubt with lots of anti air. They probably could have used bombers but they most likely needed those for the assault on the Death Star and the massive space battle. Using a few commandos who probably weren't trained as hotshot pilots anyway was a more effective use of resources.


How did that tiny bunker charge a shield that large? uh. It wasn't a tiny bunker. It was a massive complex, largely underground, part of which was an enormous satellite dish the size of a city skyline that projected the shield.
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David Umstattd wrote:

How did that tiny bunker charge a shield that large? uh. It wasn't a tiny bunker. It was a massive complex, largely underground, part of which was an enormous satellite dish the size of a city skyline that projected the shield.

Indeed. Here's a small look at the inside of the bunker:



In that scene, an officer comes in, and Han(?) throws something at him, knocking him over the railing, and he falls. So what you see isn't even all of it (and it looks like the electric things curve around).

Whatever it is, it's pretty big, and far more than the tiny bunker you see (which, incidentally, looks like it's kind of built into the side of a hill anyway).
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David Umstattd
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sigmazero13 wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:

How did that tiny bunker charge a shield that large? uh. It wasn't a tiny bunker. It was a massive complex, largely underground, part of which was an enormous satellite dish the size of a city skyline that projected the shield.

Indeed. Here's a small look at the inside of the bunker:



In that scene, an officer comes in, and Han(?) throws something at him, knocking him over the railing, and he falls. So what you see isn't even all of it (and it looks like the electric things curve around).

Whatever it is, it's pretty big, and far more than the tiny bunker you see (which, incidentally, looks like it's kind of built into the side of a hill anyway).


And being built into the side of a hill would make it difficult to bombard effectively. Going into the facility was probably the best tactically efficacious stratagem.
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