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Subject: Impatiently and Obsessively Waiting rss

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Shaun Varsos
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Every since I saw The Dice Tower video I've been thinking about this non-stop. I'm a former LoL player but this has me FAR more excited. I've set an alarm for the release and plan on dropping anything and everything I'm doing to put in the order. It can't get here soon enough...

Anyone else similarly consumed? I know if it's been said once it's been said 1000 times but I'm stunned and elated by the price point on this game. I know Riot has alternative revenue streams and I'm aware it's a pipe dream but I hope this serves as a wake up call to some publishers about what can be done.
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Mira Barbian
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I watched rahdo´s runthrough and I am also very excited about this game. If the shipping is not too much (to Germany, I don´t know where I can find information about this right now) I will order it as soon it comes out. Seems to be a phenomenal game. =)
 
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Isaac Thimbleby
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It's shipping via Riot's Western EU and North American merch stores to start with, though they seem to intend to expand to their other merch stores at later dates. Perhaps you could look for something of a similar weight on their EU store, and check it's P&P to Germany?
 
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Lee Talbert
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MammothBus wrote:
I know Riot has alternative revenue streams and I'm aware it's a pipe dream but I hope this serves as a wake up call to some publishers about what can be done.


I am betting the price point has a lot to do with ordering 30k games at one time. Most boardgame companies don't place orders any where close to that scale because they cannot afford to take the hit if it fails. I really don't see this changing anything.
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WD Yoga
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I am also very excited about this game since watching Rodney's Watch it Played videos, mainly for the Robo Rally-esque game mechanic. That the mechs are cute and detailed is additional bonus for me.
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Paul Newsham
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inttruder wrote:
I am betting the price point has a lot to do with ordering 30k games at one time. Most boardgame companies don't place orders any where close to that scale because they cannot afford to take the hit if it fails. I really don't see this changing anything.


Eurazeo, through Asmodee, now own:

Filosofia Éditions
Z-Man Games
Plaid Hat Games
Pretzel Games
Fantasy Flight Games
Days of Wonder
Catan Studio
WindRider Games
Space Cowboys

Eurazeo's revenue in the first half of 2016 was 1.8699 billion euros, with 439 million in cash equivalent assets.

I've heard multiple sources quote the rule of thumb that manufacturing costs 1/5th of MSRP. Let's take Star Wars Rebellion as our comparison point: lots of plastic, strong IP, so reasonably similar to MvM. It has a $100 MSRP, so it would cost about $20 a unit to manufacture. Now, if they were to print 30,000 copies of Rebellion, this price would go way down, but even assuming it stayed at $20 that's a $600,000 production run, or 540k euros at current exchange rates. That's 0.12% of Eurazeo's cash on hand, and 0.02% of their first half revenue.

There's absolutely nothing stopping the 10 publishers above from ordering a 30k print run, and selling no copies at all would be a loss that wouldn't even show up on the balance sheet of the company that owns them.

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Dean L
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Tarnop wrote:


There's absolutely nothing stopping the 10 publishers above from ordering a 30k print run, and selling no copies at all would be a loss that wouldn't even show up on the balance sheet of the company that owns them.



But the company that owns them would fire all the people involved in ordering that print run, and possibly shut down the subsidy entirely.

If they had a 'sure thing' they could certainly get the funding for a larger production run from the parent company. But they'd need to able to demonstrate that.

The reason Eurazeo have so much money is they never went "ahh lets just print 30k of these, doesn't matter if they don't sell, we can afford it".
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Nigel McNaughton
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inttruder wrote:
MammothBus wrote:
I know Riot has alternative revenue streams and I'm aware it's a pipe dream but I hope this serves as a wake up call to some publishers about what can be done.


I am betting the price point has a lot to do with ordering 30k games at one time. Most boardgame companies don't place orders any where close to that scale because they cannot afford to take the hit if it fails. I really don't see this changing anything.


While that's part of it, the bigger part of it is the cutting out distribution and stores.

The idea behind the MSRP is 5 times manufacturing is that someone like Stonemeyer games would have to produce this for around ~$15. Then they would sell it to a distributor for ~$30, who might sell it to a retail store for ~$37. Who sells it for $75 to you. That's the 5x rule.

Riot Games can produce it for $50, sell it you for $75, making that same $15.

Even with economies of scale Stonemeyer couldn't get for $15 what Riot could get for $50 (they've got the economies of scale too).

This isn't some wake up call to every other game company, it's just a demonstration of the power that a giant company with a monthly audience of 100 Million people, with their own existing distribution network built to serve them can do at zero risk.
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Paul Newsham
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Deano2099 wrote:
If they had a 'sure thing' they could certainly get the funding for a larger production run from the parent company. But they'd need to able to demonstrate that.

The reason Eurazeo have so much money is they never went "ahh lets just print 30k of these, doesn't matter if they don't sell, we can afford it".


But that same logic doesn't apply to Riot?
 
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Julien Grenier
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Tarnop wrote:
Deano2099 wrote:
If they had a 'sure thing' they could certainly get the funding for a larger production run from the parent company. But they'd need to able to demonstrate that.

The reason Eurazeo have so much money is they never went "ahh lets just print 30k of these, doesn't matter if they don't sell, we can afford it".


But that same logic doesn't apply to Riot?



It could but it doesn't because

1 Riot revenues are 1.6 billions and they are the ones producing the game also their parent company's worth is 100billions.
2 Unless the Eurazeo's CEO is a big boardgame fan, they have 0 interest of doing any kind of fan-servicing, they are there to make money.
3 yes if Asmodee had the kind of revenues that Riot Games have they could do it, but they don't.
 
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Maxfield Stewart
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To the OP, I've been waiting for almost 3 years, obsessively waiting. I used to harass Chris and the team every day with "When?" So I feel ya!

To the rest of the thread thinking about costs. As a board game fan and collector I too have watched Asmodee's recent moves and wondered what it all means, is it good? Is it bad? Time will tell. You've glommed onto one of the potential upsides, when they consolidate like that they can make much more strategic decisions around costs and investments.

If you're thinking about napkin math costs. Don't forget that storage of a huge volume of board games also has costs over long periods of time. Board game print runs, in my opinion, are often small because as much as we love this hobby, demand is often small (in comparison). Not everyone gets to make a generational success like Ticket to Ride or Catan. Producing small runs is about risk mitigation and unfortunately it is also is a contributor to higher prices. I think there are very few, if any, board game publishers looking to screw their players. If anything the quality of board games has gone way up in the past 10 years I've been collecting in response to the demand for higher quality game production.

To be very clear, I'm not involved with what MvM costs but as a hobbyist gamer I know I've talked a lot about what I spend and I know I've grilled Chris and his crew to the point of obsession about this stuff. So in a weird way, it makes me giddy to see the community here also having those same conversations.
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Paul Newsham
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ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
It could but it doesn't because

1 Riot revenues are 1.6 billions and they are the ones producing the game also their parent company's worth is 100billions.
2 Unless the Eurazeo's CEO is a big boardgame fan, they have 0 interest of doing any kind of fan-servicing, they are there to make money.
3 yes if Asmodee had the kind of revenues that Riot Games have they could do it, but they don't.


The post I was replying to was talking about "can't" not "won't". Obviously they won't because they couldn't give a toss about boardgames beyond their contribution to the bottom line. If people buying games begin to expect more for their money then that attitude can change, and Asmodee's owners have the capital to make it feasible.
 
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Dean L
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Tarnop wrote:
Deano2099 wrote:
If they had a 'sure thing' they could certainly get the funding for a larger production run from the parent company. But they'd need to able to demonstrate that.

The reason Eurazeo have so much money is they never went "ahh lets just print 30k of these, doesn't matter if they don't sell, we can afford it".


But that same logic doesn't apply to Riot?


Not really. And you'll note it's being talked about as a "passion project". It's not being worked on for the money, really.

Riot are also owned by a big conglomorate, yes. But Riot make enough money themselves that they can afford for this to tank with it barely effecting the figures that they report back up to their parent company.

Essentially the difference is that in Riot's case they can manage their own budget up to 100s of millions without the owners getting involved. Asmodee can't.
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Lee Talbert
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Tarnop wrote:
inttruder wrote:
I am betting the price point has a lot to do with ordering 30k games at one time. Most boardgame companies don't place orders any where close to that scale because they cannot afford to take the hit if it fails. I really don't see this changing anything.


Eurazeo, through Asmodee, now own:

Filosofia Éditions
Z-Man Games
Plaid Hat Games
Pretzel Games
Fantasy Flight Games
Days of Wonder
Catan Studio
WindRider Games
Space Cowboys

Eurazeo's revenue in the first half of 2016 was 1.8699 billion euros, with 439 million in cash equivalent assets.

I've heard multiple sources quote the rule of thumb that manufacturing costs 1/5th of MSRP. Let's take Star Wars Rebellion as our comparison point: lots of plastic, strong IP, so reasonably similar to MvM. It has a $100 MSRP, so it would cost about $20 a unit to manufacture. Now, if they were to print 30,000 copies of Rebellion, this price would go way down, but even assuming it stayed at $20 that's a $600,000 production run, or 540k euros at current exchange rates. That's 0.12% of Eurazeo's cash on hand, and 0.02% of their first half revenue.

There's absolutely nothing stopping the 10 publishers above from ordering a 30k print run, and selling no copies at all would be a loss that wouldn't even show up on the balance sheet of the company that owns them.



You are right it wouldn't show up on Asmodee's balance sheet. It would show up on their own balance sheet which they would have to report to their parent company. Who would not be very happy if they burn money. Usually the way these acquisitions work is that is that they still run as their own company then report earnings up the chain. If you are the guy that ordered 30k copies of a game that didn't sell well there is a good chance you will be putting a resume together.
 
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James Daily
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The only thing bothering me about this game is that the run-throughs and reviews out right now all feel like they were sort of sponsored or paid for in some way. The way they touch on and accentuate the same points, which is pretty typical for reviews, seems a bit more noticeable here.

Also hearing Rodney from Watch It Played pretty much give a sales pitch and throw in his opinions was pretty odd since that's not his style.

With that said the game still looks fantastic, but I'm thinking I might wait for some actual gameplay and user feedback before buying.
 
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Maxfield Stewart
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jaypeedaylee wrote:
The only thing bothering me about this game is that the run-throughs and reviews out right now all feel like they were sort of sponsored or paid for in some way. The way they touch on and accentuate the same points, which is pretty typical for reviews, seems a bit more noticeable here.

Also hearing Rodney from Watch It Played pretty much give a sales pitch and throw in his opinions was pretty odd since that's not his style.

With that said the game still looks fantastic, but I'm thinking I might wait for some actual gameplay and user feedback before buying.


I know I work at Riot and that may bias my opinion for you. I was present the day Chris and Rick showed MvM to Rodney at Gencon. I'll admit, I was having a bit of fanboy moment about getting to meet Rodney but I can also tell you that Rodney is one of the most genuine guys I've met.

He was giddy and excited at moments but also deadly serious with Chris in others. I can also say I was there when Chris asked Rodney for his opinion and really emphasized no strings attached. Chris was way more interested in Rodney's opinion than he was in any content Rodney created.

Chris, Rick, myself, the Riot crew, we're kind of floored at the response. I think (let me emphasize the *I* there) Chris would've been humbled if even one reviewer had nice things to say. I know I'm still trying to contain how positive the response is. I have no right to be proud, I just got to offer my opinion at times and be there at some key moments.

I can't emphasize enough however, Chris would never pay for positive reviews. If you knew him, he's the kind of guy who would thank you for telling him his game sucks.
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Paul Newsham
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inttruder wrote:
You are right it wouldn't show up on Asmodee's balance sheet. It would show up on their own balance sheet which they would have to report to their parent company. Who would not be very happy if they burn money. Usually the way these acquisitions work is that is that they still run as their own company then report earnings up the chain. If you are the guy that ordered 30k copies of a game that didn't sell well there is a good chance you will be putting a resume together.


Once again: the post I was replying to said "Most boardgame companies don't place orders any where close to that scale because they cannot afford to take the hit if it fails". The profits and cash on hand of Eurazeo strongly indicate that they can comfortably afford to take the hit if it fails. The issue of whether they would choose to or whether someone at Asmodee would lose their job was not raised in the original post or in my reply. The question was whether any other publisher could have access to those economies of scale, not whether it would be wise to do so.
 
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James Daily
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Vestas wrote:
jaypeedaylee wrote:
The only thing bothering me about this game is that the run-throughs and reviews out right now all feel like they were sort of sponsored or paid for in some way. The way they touch on and accentuate the same points, which is pretty typical for reviews, seems a bit more noticeable here.

Also hearing Rodney from Watch It Played pretty much give a sales pitch and throw in his opinions was pretty odd since that's not his style.

With that said the game still looks fantastic, but I'm thinking I might wait for some actual gameplay and user feedback before buying.


I know I work at Riot and that may bias my opinion for you. I was present the day Chris and Rick showed MvM to Rodney at Gencon. I'll admit, I was having a bit of fanboy moment about getting to meet Rodney but I can also tell you that Rodney is one of the most genuine guys I've met.

He was giddy and excited at moments but also deadly serious with Chris in others. I can also say I was there when Chris asked Rodney for his opinion and really emphasized no strings attached. Chris was way more interested in Rodney's opinion than he was in any content Rodney created.

Chris, Rick, myself, the Riot crew, we're kind of floored at the response. I think (let me emphasize the *I* there) Chris would've been humbled if even one reviewer had nice things to say. I know I'm still trying to contain how positive the response is. I have no right to be proud, I just got to offer my opinion at times and be there at some key moments.

I can't emphasize enough however, Chris would never pay for positive reviews. If you knew him, he's the kind of guy who would thank you for telling him his game sucks.


Awesome response, thanks for taking the time to write it! Like you, if I got to meet Rodney I'd also fanboy pretty hard... he's actually the reason me and my friends are able to play board games because nobody likes sifting through rules and Rodney's rule breakdowns are perfect!

It's refreshing to see you folks at Riot so pumped over this. Maybe sometimes I'm a bit too skeptical and look at things as too good to be true . You may have convinced me to put my name in for an order on the 13th if I can beat the rush!
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